Points system (Read 4,356 times)

[l8dog]

Not too fond of this format without having 12 teams. Years ago it was fine when teams were in groups as long as you won your races you won your group you were through to the finals the hits were bigger and eliminated cars but it seems like the hits were smaller this year . I'm guessing it was to preserve the cars and get maximum points so you could get into the finals. in my own opinion they should have a bonus point for roll overs to encourage what 90% of us go to see and that's the hits. if you give 30 points for a roll i think there would be alot more action.

[totspete]

Feb 11, 2013 8:16:30 GMT 12 l8dog said:

Not too fond of this format without having 12 teams. Years ago it was fine when teams were in groups as long as you won your races you won your group you were through to the finals the hits were bigger and eliminated cars but it seems like the hits were smaller this year . I'm guessing it was to preserve the cars and get maximum points so you could get into the finals. in my own opinion they should have a bonus point for roll overs to encourage what 90% of us go to see and that's the hits. if you give 30 points for a roll i think there would be alot more action.

Agreed. More focus on getting three and four cars home on Friday ... meant the action was tamer than in the recent past on night one.

[kiatoa]

Maybe then thay just need to look at points allocation with more being awarded for first place ie 120 for first?

[alloyplatypus]

I know with the 3 teams to a group system, a team like Hawkes Bay may have not made it through as well. HB won their races but often didnt get high placings as well as the win. If, when the other 2 teams met, one team dominated the other, it was still possible for them to get through with a loss, thus knocking out the team with 2 wins. I know its happened a few times over the years.

[BarryB]

I disagree.........there is no real difference when racing in groups as a team just taking the win, and winning two races, can still get beat by a team with a narrow loss and a big win. The 13 team format didn't change anything there. Winning both races doesn't always win your group, and nor should it.

Your "bonus points" for a roll over are obtained by the fact that you've just eliminated 25% of your opposition. There's plenty on incentive.

Points change to 120 for a win? Might be worth looking at a few scenarios and considering, at least discussing, but I honestly believe the main reason for trying to conserve the cars is due more to the imbalance between some of the teams but also more due to the fact that to win this thing you need to front with 4 good cars and 4 uninjured drivers in EVERY round. HB proved that just winning isn't enough. They were undefeated yet only finished fifth.........

[mcfly]

Feb 11, 2013 8:16:30 GMT 12 l8dog said:

Not too fond of this format without having 12 teams. Years ago it was fine when teams were in groups as long as you won your races you won your group you were through to the finals the hits were bigger and eliminated cars but it seems like the hits were smaller this year . I'm guessing it was to preserve the cars and get maximum points so you could get into the finals. in my own opinion they should have a bonus point for roll overs to encourage what 90% of us go to see and that's the hits. if you give 30 points for a roll i think there would be alot more action.

I agree totally with you here. Maybe the points could be used as a backup only - for example if you have 5 unbeaten teams at the end of night one then the points gained would be used and the four with the most points would be the finalists. But if you have a situation where team A has a win and a loss and has 280 points, and team B has 2 wins and 180 points, then team B would go through. The whole idea is after all to win, and in a team effort effort only one car needs to do that. Teams racing is popular because of the hits/action only, and the current formula detracts from this and leaves a sour taste at times. A situation like the Hawkeyes finishing unbeaten but in 5th place, yet a team that they beat ends up in 3rd place is just not right.

[Skorp]

Personally, I think the points system is fine. It encourages you to get more cars across the line, and stop your opponents from getting the across the line, which is what i think happened. There were a lot of races with only a couple of finishers on Friday night, and that is because there were some big hits. There were quite a few hits that took both the attacking car and the one being hit out of the race. I think the higher than normal number of removals for wheel guards and other things might have effected the number of finishers too, but overall, I was happy with the quality of the racing.

I don't think more points for first would help with this problem, some races are just going to turn into fizzer's; especially as we get into the second round of racing. The first half of the night has some really decent hits, but the second was a bit more tame as drivers and cars were already a bit beaten up from the first round. Part of the "Meta-game" is how you go about making sure you don't have to have the whole crew up all night fixing cars ready for the second night; car preservation plays a big role in deciding how you will approach each race as you don't want to give yourselves too much work to do. And with a 13 team format, you have to factor in that there is a minimum number of points you will need to qualify, and that requires getting car across the line. With group, you are only fighting for points against those in your group, so you can go nuts a bit more with the hits.
I also saw a large number of "missed" hits, where the attacking car missed its target

I do however like the idea of points for rollovers; although we need to be careful about how it is implemented.

[l8dog]

Feb 11, 2013 8:38:51 GMT 12 BarryB said:

I disagree.........there is no real difference when racing in groups as a team just taking the win, and winning two races, can still get beat by a team with a narrow loss and a big win. The 13 team format didn't change anything there. Winning both races doesn't always win your group, and nor should it.

Your "bonus points" for a roll over are obtained by the fact that you've just eliminated 25% of your opposition. There's plenty on incentive.

Points change to 120 for a win? Might be worth looking at a few scenarios and considering, at least discussing, but I honestly believe the main reason for trying to conserve the cars is due more to the imbalance between some of the teams but also more due to the fact that to win this thing you need to front with 4 good cars and 4 uninjured drivers in EVERY round. HB proved that just winning isn't enough. They were undefeated yet only finished fifth.........

Barry you and i won agree on much in this thread.
I believe the only points that should be awarded is for a win then the rest should be on eliminations, rolls, putting cars up the walls and maybe even spins. Yes i go to teams for the carnage and i love it. watching 2 teams flag race just aggrivates me.
i do agree that there is skill in flag racing at teams as you still have to avoid and pass the other team blockers,pete rees showed us that last year.
Every driver enters teams knowing whats instore and thats the hit i would just like to see more of it.

[BarryB]

Feb 11, 2013 9:04:42 GMT 12 l8dog said:

I believe the only points that should be awarded is for a win then the rest should be on eliminations, rolls, putting cars up the walls and maybe even spins. Yes i go to teams for the carnage and i love it. watching 2 teams flag race just aggrivates me.
i do agree that there is skill in flag racing at teams as you still have to avoid and pass the other team blockers,pete rees showed us that last year.
Every driver enters teams knowing whats instore and thats the hit i would just like to see more of it.

Absolutely impossible to judge and implement, especially the spins. It would become like judging in boxing, an absolute joke. Even the rolls - what happens when one Welly car rolls his own team mate?

You reckon it was tame, but we had a few races with only three cars starting, and sixth drivers used, as it was. How do you cover that?

[l8dog]

Don't get me wrong the second night was better racing but as you could see from the first night everyone wanted to get all 4 cars through to get the points to qualify. There were many people around me on the second night confused with the points system. They hadn't been for years and thought it was first past the post wins.
what happens if you roll your own team car same thing if you kick the ball into your own goal in soccer, other team gets the point. moral of the story don't roll your own team mate.

[deanwatts88]

This is also been discussed on FB.. to be consistent.. this is a cut an paste of what I said there..

All though I understand why the points system in in place I I would prefere the winner takes all system.. 1st across the line!!! Look at any sport tourney. you win you move on! simple. Not sure and will have to think about it more but maybe look at the way 7s do their tourney or even simple tennis type seeded system.
for me it is about looking after your runners, blockers doing their job and not thinking about finishing but stopping the other teams runners from finishing,. Points does not allow this type of tactics

[Deleted]

The points system used is valid, but the slight tweak as someone mentioned earlier of relying on wins v losses, and using the points as a countback system would work.

I would actually prefer it like that for the 12 team format also. Win both your group races and you're through automatically, points to be used if all the teams win one race each.

This way the racing on the first night would be more like the second, with it all hanging on getting your car across the line first - and less on accumulating points.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[FlyingTheV]

To avoid the trivia question of which two teams were unbeaten at the 2013 Teams Champs I would suggest a tweak to the 2nd night format.

The current system highlighted the inequity of the current arrangememts when Hawkes Bay can enter the 2nd night in 5th place yet even after winning it's two races on night two still end up only - 5th!!!

Its a given that the points system for 13 teams is the only way to determine qualification positions on the first night. However the 2nd night needs to be changed in that points are dropped altogether. Results are then determined by qualification positions from the first night i.e. Hawkes Bay would have ended up competing against BayPark for 3rd & 4th due to their finishing higher in the qualification rankings on the first night - irrespective as to whether Nelson scored more points then them which is what happened on Saturday night. Some of the more memorable and hard fought victories for teams often resulted when only 1 or 2 cars managed to finish, which immediately puts them at a disadvantage against a tame race when all 4 cars finished.

Just a thought with whta I see as a simple solution (until someone suggests otherwise).

Roger Morrison.

[4zfed]

So if it a win moves on scenario how do you determine who meets who on the second night?
I cant believe some people said the hitting wasnt as big ive been going for years and there were some huge hits stil.
Just take a look at the Poms tank, Bengstons car, Ngatais car, Hewsons car, Allan Levien, the Poms only fronting 3 cars & having injured or very sore drivers etc etc
I think we are just starting to expect too much...
Well done to all involved i think the 13 team format made for a much improved 2nd nights racing which is what we all asked for..

[FlyingTheV]

How would it work??

Use Saturday night as an example.

Hawkes Bay beats Waikato - they then come against the highest ranked loser of the main semi-finals (based on the order of qualification from night one). Hawkes Bay can then finish no worse than 4th - better than the 5th they started with.

Mustangs beat BayPark - they come up against Hawkes Bay as the highest ranked loser.

Nelson beats Christchurch - they come up against the 2nd highest ranked loser from the main semi-finals.

Palmerston North beats the Lions - as the 2nd ranked highest loser they come up against Nelson.

That make sense??

Roger.

[BarryB]

I've just got my head around the current format Roger ;D

[tony27]

How many times do you hear I hate flagracing but that seems to be what some people seem to be wanting now
All the teams know that just winning the race isn't enough & that you need to have more cars finish than your opponents to get a big score.
Hawkes Bay were just unlucky that all their races were very even contests which makes for a low score. When I saw the draw I was expecting the tigers to be top scorers first night going on previous years results but the hawke eyes proved me wrong by improving massively this year
The suggestion of working your way up the results on the second night seems rather strange & means some teams would end up doing a lot more races than the current 4 they do currently, how far down the results from the first night would you go & why?

[percy]

Just because points is the deciding factor does not mean that there is necessarily less action.

There are two ways to go about gaining the most points. You can do what Christchurch did against Nelson and try and run as many cars as you can. If a car falls behind sufficiently they become the block car.

But that is not the only tactic. The most effective way of stopping your opponent is to enforce a DNF on them. It's easier to score the big points if your opponents runners are on the infield.

Some years the action on the Friday night outweighs the Saturday night and some years it's vice versa. I don't think we should be changing anything on the basis of one year.

[tank11]

Oh com'on Percy, someone suggested the Tigers be changed because of one race!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

[Geoff public]

Many years ago when Palmerston ran a 10 team champs I remember NZDTR reporting the meetings main critcisms including the winner of the hardest and often most entertaining race did not make it to the semis and the format encouraged procession racing. Similar to what has been expressed in this thread. Auckland moving to a first across the line format for the teams national made very enjoyable racing for this spectator. Today I am not sure what the meeting format answer is that will best satisfy both competitor and spectator but I am confident the current format is NOT it.