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Post by percy on Jul 29, 2014 20:59:25 GMT 12
As most of our posters will be aware there has been plenty of drama with the Championship Allocations for the 2015/2016 season.
So my question to you, the Macgors posters is going forward how should we allocate our titles?
What is the best way forward from here?
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Post by Admin on Jul 29, 2014 21:46:02 GMT 12
As most of our posters will be aware there has been plenty of drama with the Championship Allocations for the 2015/2016 season. So my question to you, the Macgors posters is going forward how should we allocate our titles? What is the best way forward from here? Tracks that meet criteria for a particular class should be included in a rotation of major championships for that class. Old school is sometimes best. |
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Post by Pazza on Jul 29, 2014 21:53:53 GMT 12
Think you should also have to run the class regurly during the season not just once or twice a season to be able to apply for that title.
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Post by BarryB on Jul 29, 2014 22:30:06 GMT 12
Yes, there needs to be plenty of strictly adhered to criteria (prize money included, as well as that mentioned above, and criteria that is actually checked by somebody and not just written on a piece of paper at application time) to be eligible to apply for any given championship, both in the season before and the season of said title. I could write a book on this, and over the last 25 years have probably already written half of one, but for now I'd be interested in reading the views of others.
The only thing people need to remember though, is to step away from all/any track and/or class biases, and ensure that your idea works for the following three stakeholders; 1/ the fans, 2/ the competitors AND 3/ the tracks themselves. If it doesn't, it's probably not a good idea. Keep the big picture in sight at all times.
Barry B
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Post by brettgrace on Jul 30, 2014 22:15:05 GMT 12
It really does depend class to class on what the "best" method of allocation might be, a class like stock cars might have 15 tracks eligible to hold the title (please correct me if I'm wrong) so is a 15 year dry spell between titles all that good for the profile of the class in that particular area? Is it good for the fans who can't afford to travel thousands of kilometers in the intervening 14 years? Is it fair for the track/s who support the class and may have 40% of the registered competitors contracted there to be rewarded for their stalwartism so infrequently? It might be the fairest sounding way of doing it but we are a nation with a clinical obsession for all things fair and PC and I'm not certain that this is the best thing for the SPORT. The sport depends on a complex equilibrium between racers, fans and venues/promotion and a one race title is not fair on the sport. It upsets one corner of the triangle almost without fail (if you believe everything you read on here anyway) and besides being a flash in the pan type of way to increase the visibility of the class at the particular track does nothing in the long term to foster the class, let alone the sport. So with respect to those who need to see rotation in aspects of the sport outside of the mechanical workings of the cars, what follows is my humble opinion on what we could do to keep the rotation scheme in place and make things "fairer": The title rotates between the islands each year. Three tracks each hold a leg of the title with the whole thing playing out over one weekend. One on Friday night, one on Saturday night, one Sunday arvo/evening. The tracks each contribute 1/3 of the prize money to an overall points fund which is the equivalent of the minimum prize money requirements currently set out in the rulebook. Each track must also contribute an amount not less than 1/3 of the total prize pool and distribute this among the competitors on their night of racing as travel money. These are just the minimum requirements for prize money, naturally each track is free to do more eg prize money for heat races/features and the like. Without going too much further yet let's step back and look at what this achieves: 1. We've instantly reduced the waiting time between titles by a factor of three, good for the fans and tracks. 2. There is only a year gap between islands. Good for the profile of the class and keeps things "fair". 3. We've made the championship cheaper for each track by a third because there's an overall prize pool. 4. Each competitor is GUARANTEED money at each track, all they've gotta do is turn up and race. 5. There's suddenly a bunch of extra people who'll be following the series the whole weekend, they'll need food, drink and a place to stay. Good for the local community. 6. Technically, this format is both a first past the flag and a three race format because there's one points paying feature per night, over three nights. No more arguing over format. There are many more pros and cons of this I'm sure, but its an idea  |
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Post by Admin on Jul 30, 2014 23:16:35 GMT 12
Don't forget Brett there are the Island and G.P. events to be allocated to alleviate the lull years of the NZ Champs.
Tracks should also develop their own signature events so they don't rely on SNZ Championships solely to swell their coffers.
I must admit if the NZ Champs was run as a series I just wouldn't bother. Play with the G.P. event as much as you like.
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Post by brettgrace on Jul 31, 2014 0:11:21 GMT 12
That's true, I guess its a bit of a pipe dream and like yourself there will be people who don't like every aspect of every idea. I'm darned if I know what the best answer is that will keep the majority happy and not just the track who's luck it is to host it. Will it not to a certain extent hinder some of the advancement needed to keep the sport alive if a track knows that at some point, they are guaranteed a title? I know that the option to not turn up is viable, if a little defeatist and there are some racers who'd turn up to the pub with Susan Boyle on their arm if it got them a 1NZ...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 0:39:39 GMT 12
Hi brettgrace, I like ppl thinking outside the square but TBH, I don't reckon that would be a fly'r. Take for example Stockcars, I will always try and get to an NZ champs when I can. But if you think I'm going to travel to (using a couple of examples) Stratford for Friday night, back to Palmy for Saturday, then up to Napier for sunday... then drive back toi get Mrs Jam back in time for work on Monday morning then you're 99% wrong. And even worse if you think I'm going to do Cromwell, Greymouth, Blenhiem on a Fri, Sat, Sun you are 300% wrong. Other classes would be worse, how many SI tracks run Midgets or sprintcars (or superstocks) Sidecars could be Invercargill, chch, nelson over 3 nights, bugger that for a joke I like the idea of the one weekend deal, best man at the time wins. |
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Post by BarryB on Jul 31, 2014 6:26:51 GMT 12
I too enjoy the outside-the-square thinking, but I don't think the three-times-as-much-racing and a whole bunch of travel over a 3-day weekend for the same amount of prize-money would fly with competitors. If they EACH paid the minimum NZ Champs prize-pool you may get some support, but for the classes with 75% of the competitors in the NI (like Stockcars) going to the SI every second year might seem a bit tough too. Although when they are held in Nelson in 2015 it will be the third time in 5 years, so............
What I think personally would work best; very basically, only a few tracks (3 or 4, maybe 5 or 6 in some in some cases) getting the NZ titles for each class (and only the most suitable tracks for that particular class) in rotation (so each selected track therefore getting it much more regularly than they do now), will never fly as it will NEVER get a buy-in (read vote) from members as some tracks would likely never see a NZ title again. The tracks that don't would receive some economic gain through not hosting the titles, as the bigger tracks that can hold the larger crowds and that would now be hosting the NZ Superstocks, for example, every 4 years, would be paying a large "hosting fee" to SNZ, some of which would filter down to the other tracks that race the class but no longer get to stage that particular title. The 4 tracks that did get an NZ title would no longer have the right to host the GP or Island Superstock titles either, so the other tracks would receive them more regularly as well. The number of tracks would vary from class to class, Solos might only be two, Superstocks 4, Super Saloons 5 and Stockars 6. I haven't had a really close look at it since 1993, and the capabilities of tracks and the spread of classes and competitors has changed somewhat since then.
But what we really need is an allocation model that tracks WILL buy into, and THAT is not so easy.........
Barry B
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Post by The Observer on Jul 31, 2014 10:15:06 GMT 12
If they EACH paid the minimum NZ Champs prize-pool you may get some support, but for the classes with 75% of the competitors in the NI (like Stockcars) going to the SI every second year might seem a bit tough too. Although when they are held in Nelson in 2015 it will be the third time in 5 years, so............ Barry B Hello Barry - I don't think the Stockcar title is such a good example of over exposure to the South Island. Equally you could argue that for 3 years in a row the title went to the East Coast of the North Island - hows that for a result! 2005/06 Meeanee 2004/05 Baypark 2003/04 Gisborne There are a number of people who push the rotation process of allocating titles, yet get upset about the Stockcar title going for "the third time in 5 years" . When you look at where the list of titles from past years have gone you can see the only track that has jumped the rotation process is Rotorua. NO other track has had the chance to hold this title more than once. So not sure how you could suggest that the NZ stockcar title going to Blenheim, CHCH and Nelson is not working for the sport if you are a supporter of rotation (not saying that you are in this case)? Perhaps if you looked at the figures beyond the last 5 years you could say the North Island tracks have held that title for 10 years straight. Is this were I quote "so.....its only fair that the next tracks on the list are those who have not held that title"? One of the advantages of the New Zealand title is it supports the development of the sport. I think those who vote on allocations of titles also recognise that, and the NZ stockcar title is a good example of that. While the stockcar class was a little slower coming out of the blocks in the South Island at last count there are 130 competitors in this class (SNZ class profile), making it the biggest class in the South Island able to host a NZ title. I am sure that growth has been supported by the presence of NZ titles, which is good for the sport. While this growth has happened recently with the influx of titles to the South Island, perhaps if there had been a little more foward thinking the develoment could have happened earlier by sending the titles south earlier to avoid this "congestion" of the last five years. 2014/15 Nelson 2013/14 Palm Nth 2012/13 Woodford Glen 2011/12 Rotorua 2010/11 Blenheim 2009/10 Wanganui
2008/09 Wellington
2007/08 Stratford
2006/07 Waikaraka
2005/06 Meeanee
2004/05 Baypark
2003/04 Gisborne
2002/03 Huntly
2001/02 Palm Nth
2000/01 Rotorua
But I'm not sure any of the clubs in that first 10 year bracket would have supported delaying there "turn" by a year or two if that were the case? As you are alluding to Barry, there appears to be some who are already disappointed they have not had there second turn at the trophy trough.
I guess thats why its important to keep recognising the different stakeholder groups; what does the seperation of titles mean for competitors, fans, and clubs?
Perhaps, rather than break the groups into North and South you should be considering three seperate regions; North, Central, and South.
I would pitch Central as Nelson, BLenehiem, Wellington, PN, Wanganui. All within two hour drive of ferry terminal. Obviousley everything else is North, and everything else South. Maybe then if you discussing looknig at where titles can go it might help share the split, while acknowledgin some competitor number trends.
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Post by BarryB on Jul 31, 2014 10:38:06 GMT 12
No, the Stockcar class is not a good example (a relatively new class in the allocation process, like Saloons, that was picked up by one Island earlier than the other - and even then some NI tracks earlier than others - so neither has a full history yet). I only chose it because I was carrying on from brettgrace's post which used Stockcars as his guideline. No other reason. The three years it went to the East Coast not as many tracks, including the whole of the SI, were eligible to host the NZ Stockcar title, so the whole deal is a bad example.
The Superstocks 3 years in a row at neighbouring tracks, 2k's/Rotorua/Huntly is another bad example I do not support.
I'm not necessarily a fan of rotation, certainly not strict rotation, rotation for rotation's sake, but I am a fan of common sense and something that everybody can buy into. And ten years in one Island followed by 5 in the other, because that's the order they committed to the class, does not work. Shuffling things around, moving some up and some down, so the next 15 years and the 15 years after that looked fair, might be a more attractive option. The past can give you a guideline. The future is what we need to concentrate on.
Barry B
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Post by BarryB on Jul 31, 2014 10:40:24 GMT 12
Perhaps, rather than break the groups into North and South you should be considering three seperate regions; North, Central, and South.
I would pitch Central as Nelson, BLenehiem, Wellington, PN, Wanganui. All within two hour drive of ferry terminal. Obviousley everything else is North, and everything else South.
[/font][/font][/quote] Not the dumbest idea ever suggested on macgor's........... Barry B |
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Post by spdwayorthehway on Jul 31, 2014 11:03:49 GMT 12
If they EACH paid the minimum NZ Champs prize-pool you may get some support, but for the classes with 75% of the competitors in the NI (like Stockcars) going to the SI every second year might seem a bit tough too. Although when they are held in Nelson in 2015 it will be the third time in 5 years, so............ Barry B Hello Barry - I don't think the Stockcar title is such a good example of over exposure to the South Island. Equally you could argue that for 3 years in a row the title went to the East Coast of the North Island - hows that for a result! 2005/06 Meeanee 2004/05 Baypark 2003/04 Gisborne There are a number of people who push the rotation process of allocating titles, yet get upset about the Stockcar title going for "the third time in 5 years" . When you look at where the list of titles from past years have gone you can see the only track that has jumped the rotation process is Rotorua. NO other track has had the chance to hold this title more than once. So not sure how you could suggest that the NZ stockcar title going to Blenheim, CHCH and Nelson is not working for the sport if you are a supporter of rotation (not saying that you are in this case)? Perhaps if you looked at the figures beyond the last 5 years you could say the North Island tracks have held that title for 10 years straight. Is this were I quote "so.....its only fair that the next tracks on the list are those who have not held that title"? One of the advantages of the New Zealand title is it supports the development of the sport. I think those who vote on allocations of titles also recognise that, and the NZ stockcar title is a good example of that. While the stockcar class was a little slower coming out of the blocks in the South Island at last count there are 130 competitors in this class (SNZ class profile), making it the biggest class in the South Island able to host a NZ title. I am sure that growth has been supported by the presence of NZ titles, which is good for the sport. While this growth has happened recently with the influx of titles to the South Island, perhaps if there had been a little more foward thinking the develoment could have happened earlier by sending the titles south earlier to avoid this "congestion" of the last five years. 2014/15 Nelson 2013/14 Palm Nth 2012/13 Woodford Glen 2011/12 Rotorua 2010/11 Blenheim 2009/10 Wanganui
2008/09 Wellington
2007/08 Stratford
2006/07 Waikaraka
2005/06 Meeanee
2004/05 Baypark
2003/04 Gisborne
2002/03 Huntly
2001/02 Palm Nth
2000/01 Rotorua
But I'm not sure any of the clubs in that first 10 year bracket would have supported delaying there "turn" by a year or two if that were the case? As you are alluding to Barry, there appears to be some who are already disappointed they have not had there second turn at the trophy trough.
I guess thats why its important to keep recognising the different stakeholder groups; what does the seperation of titles mean for competitors, fans, and clubs?
Perhaps rather than break the groups into North and South you should be considering three seperate regions; North, Central, and South.
I would pitch Central as Nelson, BLenehiem, Wellington, PN, Wanganui. All within two hour drive of ferry. Obviousley everything else is North, and everything else South. Maybe then if you discussing looknig at where titles can go it might help share the split, while acknowledgin some competitor number trends.Can't read the last part of your post due to colour used. UPDATE; That should make it a little easier. Barry B |
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Post by brettgrace on Jul 31, 2014 12:21:32 GMT 12
Got a bit of a German theme goin BarryB I used stock cars as an example because they were the first class that sprung to mind with the right criteria to build an argument for my crazy new-fangled scheme. Street stocks work also but don't currently have the competitor base enjoyed by the stocks and proddies have the numbers but not the title. I agree the straight rotation model works for classes like solos, sidecars, mods etc but let's pretend that in the next decade, 5 new tracks pop up and they all contract stocks. The newest track has to wait 20 years before it gets a title, assuming the straight rotation model is used. That's starting to look pretty ridiculous, and might be a reason for the track to refuse to contract the class. Assuming the gp and island titles are also on rotation, that's one snz event every seven seasons assuming the rotation models space the tracks evenly. Is it time for SNZ to look at sanctioning a fifth national event for each class? Call it something different like the "Classic" and run a special format to make it stand alone? Three heat format with fastest off the back each time, passing points/points for hitting or whatever you like. If tracks are dependent on getting a big event to "line the coffers" then it makes sense to have enough big events to go around. |
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Post by BarryB on Jul 31, 2014 13:14:45 GMT 12
I'm not sure a fifth title would work, as the GP for many classes is already just a shadow of its former self, overshadowed by promotional events many tracks have invented to help their local coffers (and those that haven't arguably need to think about it); International Midget Series, Superstock Teams Nationals, World 240's, Burger King & Elf Cup Super Saloon Series, Modified Super Dirt Cup, Battle of the Stocks, King of the Coast, Stock Shock, ENZED Teams Champs etc etc etc.
Barry B
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Post by mcfly on Jul 31, 2014 19:21:54 GMT 12
It really does depend class to class on what the "best" method of allocation might be, a class like stock cars might have 15 tracks eligible to hold the title (please correct me if I'm wrong) so is a 15 year dry spell between titles all that good for the profile of the class in that particular area? Is it good for the fans who can't afford to travel thousands of kilometers in the intervening 14 years? Is it fair for the track/s who support the class and may have 40% of the registered competitors contracted there to be rewarded for their stalwartism so infrequently? It might be the fairest sounding way of doing it but we are a nation with a clinical obsession for all things fair and PC and I'm not certain that this is the best thing for the SPORT. The sport depends on a complex equilibrium between racers, fans and venues/promotion and a one race title is not fair on the sport. It upsets one corner of the triangle almost without fail (if you believe everything you read on here anyway) and besides being a flash in the pan type of way to increase the visibility of the class at the particular track does nothing in the long term to foster the class, let alone the sport. So with respect to those who need to see rotation in aspects of the sport outside of the mechanical workings of the cars, what follows is my humble opinion on what we could do to keep the rotation scheme in place and make things "fairer": The title rotates between the islands each year. Three tracks each hold a leg of the title with the whole thing playing out over one weekend. One on Friday night, one on Saturday night, one Sunday arvo/evening. The tracks each contribute 1/3 of the prize money to an overall points fund which is the equivalent of the minimum prize money requirements currently set out in the rulebook. Each track must also contribute an amount not less than 1/3 of the total prize pool and distribute this among the competitors on their night of racing as travel money. These are just the minimum requirements for prize money, naturally each track is free to do more eg prize money for heat races/features and the like. Without going too much further yet let's step back and look at what this achieves: 1. We've instantly reduced the waiting time between titles by a factor of three, good for the fans and tracks. 2. There is only a year gap between islands. Good for the profile of the class and keeps things "fair". 3. We've made the championship cheaper for each track by a third because there's an overall prize pool. 4. Each competitor is GUARANTEED money at each track, all they've gotta do is turn up and race. 5. There's suddenly a bunch of extra people who'll be following the series the whole weekend, they'll need food, drink and a place to stay. Good for the local community. 6. Technically, this format is both a first past the flag and a three race format because there's one points paying feature per night, over three nights. No more arguing over format. There are many more pros and cons of this I'm sure, but its an idea Interesting thoughts for sure, but 1 question - talking stockcars, how do you intend reducing 150+ entries down to a finals field - each night?? |
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Post by sonjahickey on Jul 31, 2014 20:25:47 GMT 12
Observer just a little correction, Rotorua did not get the NZ Stockcar Champs out of Rotation and is not the only track to have had it twice. Palmerston North has also had it twice and Huntly will do next year which is in perfect Rotation for the North Island. Stockcars were not contracted in the South Island until 2004 when Blenheim had 7. Blenheim hosted the NZ Stockcars in 2010 and Rotorua in 2011, surely you didn't think that it should have gone back to the South Island when they only had 24% of the cars at 137. They have had the champs every second year since then and even with all this exposure to NZ Titles the numbers have dropped to 129.
Only 9 Cars travelled from the South Island for the NZ Stockcar Champs in Rotorua and I know very few were in Palmerston North, from memory only 1 from Nelson who get to host the title this year, yet hundreds travel South every time it's held over the ditch.
The Streetstocks who last season have 72 Competitors in the North Island and 98 in the South Island will have to have traveled South three out of the last four years.
I think it is time to move forward as we voted 100% to do at Conference and move to a full rotational system so everybody gets a fair deal and we can plan for upcoming Championships.
Sonja Hickey
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Post by brettgrace on Jul 31, 2014 21:03:36 GMT 12
mcfly how many cars are typically in a championship final? I'm from an open wheel background
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Post by BarryB on Jul 31, 2014 21:14:17 GMT 12
Brett; a NZ Stockcar title typically attracts around 175-odd cars on average, 30 cars into the finals over three heats.
Barry B
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Post by sonjahickey on Jul 31, 2014 22:52:52 GMT 12
Oops forgot something, the North Island have been contracting Stockcars since the late 70s and didn't get a NZ title until 2000/01 season.
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