Valve Angle Change For Super Saloons (Read 7,743 times)

[nakifans]

It is now a month since the super saloon members had to have their submission's on this topic into SNZ for the tech committee to look at if changes for chev heads were required.
Has any decision been made yet, as the off season is rapidly coming to an end and I'm told that there are some requiring rebuilds[ which have been put on hold awaiting outcome] and don't know if to keep present 23deg heads and pistons and proceed with rebuild as time is starting to run short to arrange new heads and correct pistons to what ever deg heads may be allowed if rules changed.

[nzfan]

This subject seems to have taken a back seat as its not as straight cut as you would like to think .
At the moment you have drivers with legal heads that will be forced to change if the head rule is removed altogether.
On the other hand you have drivers with illegal heads that will have to change if rule stays as is and this isnt just the Ford owners either theres a few Chevys in the mix.
This head problem raised its head (no pun intended) last season just before the NZ Super Saloons @ Waikaraka Park, when Shane McIntire melted a piston in the 26T ford (ex Cardwell Ford ), and when the motor was taken to MEL Hill to be repaired it was found the heads had thier valve cant altered from OEM.
Now this was a big issue as how many of the other ford engines have these heads ( in the curent rule it doesn't mention valve cant only valve angle ), so being another "Grey area" in the rulebook SNZ decided it was best for all concerned to put out a blanket dispensation on the head valve angle rule .
That now brings us to where we are now, who is in the right do we roll over and let the c---ts keep what they have and punish everyone that has been abiding by the rules as they are? or do we tell the ones with the problem heads to get them sorted or park the cars up until they meet the current rules.
As you see its a complicated mess as it is at present .

[knownotmuch]

Isn't it a bit over the top calling drivers than have purchased engines in good faith "cheats" ?
The guys with the questionable engines do not seem to have any advantage from what I can see. If this is the case then the other drivers are certainly not punished for not having questionable heads.

[nzfan]

There you go ive removed the letters inbetween c and t call them what you like, they are running the wrong gear some of them know they are some of them have been caught in the web.
If the rule changes to suit the ones running illegal and they drop the head rule because of those cars then its going to blow the engine hp making capability wide open, and those that can will build new engines and those that cant afford the change will be punished and will probably change class or be lost to the sport altogether can the super saloons class afford to loose competitors when its working fine like it is.....

[Murray Guy (Grandad)]

So many rules, so many classes, so many that want to gain an advantage over others!

Curious, is there a reason why super saloons and sprint cars don't have identical engine specs?

[Visacard]

Aug 9, 2014 17:29:43 GMT 12 Murray Guy (Grandad) said:

So many rules, so many classes, so many that want to gain an advantage over others!

Curious, is there a reason why super saloons and sprint cars don't have identical engine specs?

Thats far too simple Murray. It would be far too easy to do and seems way too logical. snz would not have a bar of that

[brettb44s]

I thought super saloons were and open class where there were no engine restrictions? why not let them run whatever they want..Its not to curb costs surely? that's why (Limited)saloons were introduced. And in Murray Guys comment..make them the same as sprintcars then so the engines can be used in either class making them affordable..if that's the aim..seems we want to make everything harder with rules today...I was always under the impression if someone has money they can find an advantage no matter what rule is introduced..

[Murray Guy (Grandad)]

There must be a rational reason, other than stubbornness, why the two classes do not share the same engine rules as it is too obvious a partial fix with fewer rules, less confusion, reduced costs, easier to manage.
Do the sprint cars have angle issues?
Perhaps the saloon class and the modified should be likewise?
Surely a plus for the performance and handling for the super saloons, a defining difference with the 'saloon class'.

[nakifans]

Thanks for the detailed reply NZFan.
Your reply has given an insight as to what a complicated mess this valve angle rule has been turned into for the super saloon class.
Looking from the outside has this been caused by over zealous competitors with unlimited budgets, trying to get the edge with extra HP [ may be their driving skills don't match their unlimited budgets].
Or has it been a known fact that this has been happening and SNZ and the tech committee chose the easy way out and used the ostrich approach and buried their heads to what is going on as it is an internal component and what the eyes don't see other competitors won't know.
Now that it has been blown out of the water and their is no hiding from it, SNZ and the tech committee have to now take the tough stand and make and implement rules that apply to one and all [ not one for Joe blogs and blind eye to those who can afford illegal better gear] if the class is to survive and also grow.
The changes that do occur need to be done for Joe Blogs and the class as a whole, not manipulated by those within the class who can influence the changes to suit their own situation, eg have already done rebuild for next season so delay changes to when they need next rebuild etc etc.
We don't want it to become like other sports , when they take the podium you are wondering if they are up there by ability or by cheating.

[Deleted]

guys slow down a bit - in the super saloon rules there are two things to consider.

any engine modifications is legal. - that is one of thier rules, in fact it is the first thing you read in the rules section of the book!

and in direct contrast to the "any modification allowed"

Cylinder heads to retain OEM valve stem angles angle in relation to cylinder block face:
Approved OEM Cylinder Head Angles are:
(i)Chev small block heads: 23 degrees plus or minus 1 degree
(ii) Ford Cleveland heads: 9.3 degrees plus or minus 1 degree
(iii) Ford Windsor small block heads: 21 degrees plus or minus 1 degree.
(iv) Chrysler small block heads: 18 degrees plus or minus 1 degree


so the problem is this - how does the rule - any engine modifications allowed - coexist with "you are not allowed to change your valve angles"?

and then on top of that - how does canted valves affect performance to normal valves? should there be a rule for them?


the engines obeyed one rule an broke another. the "any modification allowed" was obeyed, but canted valves are not in the rule book and THAT is the issue.

[Murray Guy (Grandad)]

What is a canted valve?

[fi63]

Message from our engine builder Jack Cornett in regards to the "Cant debacle in relation to the FORDS
" .....In my opinion, yes, CANT IS a completely different [/b]measurement than valve angle. I think any engineer would agree with this. I can and WILL send a letter to support this. I am trying to find out the original cant angle for a Ford Cleveland head but, I haven't found it yet. If the rule has already been voted on though, we just need to clarify the Ford rule (different from CHEV) . I will let you know the valve cant angles when I find them. Thanks, Jack.

[nakifans]

From what I've been told, cantered valves increase the air swirl, therefore aid air flow within the chamber but could be totally wrong on this.
With chevy heads have been told that there is Nascar heads being used that have valves at angles within the chamber not in a straight line as OEM heads have but again could of been lead up garden path with this info.
I personally believe the users of the Cornet Ford engines brought them in good faith as a super saloon package as they are advertised, and good $ value, but as in NZFan posting when 26T went to get his motor rebuilt by Mel Hill a problem ie cantered valves within current rules was discovered.
This raises the question, are the motors that are imported from the states or elsewhere and sold as super saloon, midget, super stock motors etc are they approved by SNZ 1st or does an importer just drop them on the market and the buyer takes the can if they prove illegal even though they brought them in good faith.
Buying a complete motor in good faith is a totally different kettle of fish to someone who buys a component knowing it is illegal to give them an advantage over someone who abides by the rules.

[fi63]

Another previous message from Jack Cornett...... The Ford D3 head that we are currently using (your engine) has a 10.3 degree intake valve with a cant as well. The original Ford Cleveland head (as per your rules) has a 9.3 degree intake valve with a cant. The Ford D3 head has a 8.3 degree exhaust valve with NO cant. The original Ford Cleveland head has a 9.3 degree exhaust valve with a cant. There you have it. We are legal as far as valve angle goes but, there is NOTHING stated in the rules about valve cant!

[tank11]

Apart from the rule, "if it's not in the book, you cant................"

[Deleted]

Aug 10, 2014 17:19:03 GMT 12 tank11 said:

Apart from the rule, "if it's not in the book, you cant................"

whichis also in direct contrast to the "any modification allowed" - line written in the rule book!

[az]

Ford cantered valve is OEM. You can't get a Cleveland head that isn't! Most posts on here don't know what ya on about & ya NOT HELPING!

[nakifans]

If that is correct az why did the engine builder also on SNZ tech committee and also a SNZ Director raise the issue as per NZfan thread?.
There must be some difference to the Cornet cantered valves to OEM Cleveland one's?.
The original questionnaire sent to super saloon competitors and had to be back by 8th July was, do we change the chev valve angle from the present 23deg and if so to what[ something worded to this effect].
As can been seen the Ford Cleveland head debacle has raised it's head and seems to of overtaken and bogged down the original proposal and process.
In the mean time chev owners wanting to do a rebuild are left in limbo at this late stage of the off season as what to do, ie stick with 23deg combo or go 18/15/13deg etc.
I believe now is a good time to trial sprintcar motors in super saloons, like they have with the 350 super stock engine. No SNZ titles until approved but evaluated by SNZ and a super saloon committee at non title meetings.
May a decision be made soon and the class grow.
The Saloon class was once the feeder class to the super saloons but over the last couple of years very few if any have chosen to move up, either spend bucket loads on their saloons or leave the sport. The present debacle can't be encouraging either for them to move up.
While all this is going on, quietly in a Naki workshop a radical outside the square super is being built and by all reports will have a rear view mirror full of v8 powered supers.

[tank11]

Aug 10, 2014 18:05:07 GMT 12 @rhodesta said:

Aug 10, 2014 17:19:03 GMT 12 tank11 said:

Apart from the rule, "if it's not in the book, you cant................"

whichis also in direct contrast to the "any modification allowed" - line written in the rule book!

Sorry, mine was a play on cant/can't............

[Yard]

This subject is being discussed at the directors meeting this weekend 16/9/2014.