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Post by epmurc on Jan 27, 2015 22:33:53 GMT 12
Obviously the answer to that question is a resounding "YES" when talking about Superstocks and Stockcars where there is a significant entry list but the question does need to be asked for the classes where racing numbers aren't as plentiful..................specifically for the point of this discussion, Modifieds.
26 cars turned out over the weekend and over the last 10 years that I've been involved, that's about the average, it's never been as high as 30. So with 20 cars qualifying for Finals night, you were going to all the trouble and expense of holding a qualifying night to eliminate just 6 cars.
As far as I can see, the drawbacks of a night for that purpose far outweigh the benefits. It's highly unlikely the host club would turn a profit on Night 1 as most spectators want to see the Champion crowned on Night 2. It certainly adds to the already significant costs the teams are encountering, extra days off work for all involved, extra accommodation etc. etc and the track surface is never as good on the second night after taking a hammering on the first.
This years title saw a change in format from the traditional three scoring heats to a "winner takes all" final, and I've yet to hear any complaints about that. It's a format that could have the whole championship done and dusted (with a lot less dust) in one night. Informal discussions I had with other driver's over the weekend seemed to indicate I'm not the only one thinking this way.
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Post by teamkaos on Jan 28, 2015 7:05:41 GMT 12
Just have a look at what Western Springs do for Championship meetings, they always get them done on one night, even running championships for 2 classes on the same night. "And they have to push start the cars too!"
The standard 2 heat, B Main and A Main format, sometimes with a Pole Shuffle thrown in is pretty hard to beat.
I think the only format I have seen which I preffered was the NZ Midget title a few years back in Huntly.
They had heats to get the field down to 20 cars, then x3 20 lap races rotating the grids to get the grids for the final championship race, which I think was 25 or 30 laps? That was an awesome meeting for the spectators with plenty of track time for the cars.
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Post by mod46c on Jan 28, 2015 7:14:10 GMT 12
Long way to travel for one night. May be better to reduce final to 16 cars.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2015 7:26:03 GMT 12
One night can easily be done (utilizing a format like WS do), HOWEVER, if the heat races haven't got very big fields it means there's only one good race with a big field for that particular feature class all night. The fans wouldn't be too keen on that!!
Barry B
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Post by ricardo63 on Jan 28, 2015 8:20:49 GMT 12
I sorted get where you are coming from, but I think you have to make it attractive for the outta towners too. At WS, much easier to run a championship where the majority of the field is locals. What about your class (Modifieds), how many of the S.I. dudes would have come up for a one nighter?? I understand that the perspective may have been down a little on the Sat night with the numbers in the heats, but it gives the outta towners a chance to get dialled in & a fairer chance on night two. I would have had 2x qualifying heats of 13cars tho. What may have been a great addition to the program could have been an 'All In' 20 lapper on the Saturday for the Preliminary Night winner as they do in the States for Open wheelers...
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Post by Jamo on Jan 28, 2015 8:41:55 GMT 12
One night deal is easy when majority of competitors are locals like ricardo63 says. This is why the format works at the springs.
2 nighter still the way to go for NZ mods, saloons etc in my opinion. Guys would be unwilling to run a 20 lapper on night 1 that counts for nothing though as they wouldn't want to risk damage with night 2 still to happen.
Dirt Cup format this weekend will have 3 heat races with 14-16 cars in each race so that should appease the bloodthirst for those that enjoy the prospect of carnage!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 10:08:29 GMT 12
I would like to see a nz championship run over the season for example like the v8 Supercars. So many rounds over points highest points after the last round is the champ. I do however realise that this is extremely difficult and expensive for all the teams having to travel so much etc. having it run over two nights I guess can be better in the sense that visiting competitors get a bit of a practice run etc but it also bumps up costs.
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Post by gjd on Jan 28, 2015 10:31:28 GMT 12
Isnt it about time we focused on the competitors requirements rather than spectators wanting to see carnage.All that big fields do is help reduce the number of competitors thru damage related expenses as we have already seen.The 1 big race final at the end of the night just means sometimes the winner has more luck than the rest of the field in that 1 race,rather than over 3 heats where the winner is usaully the most consistant driver.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2015 10:56:41 GMT 12
Isnt it about time we focused on the competitors requirements rather than spectators wanting to see carnage.All that big fields do is help reduce the number of competitors thru damage related expenses as we have already seen.The 1 big race final at the end of the night just means sometimes the winner has more luck than the rest of the field in that 1 race,rather than over 3 heats where the winner is usaully the most consistant driver. Both work and both don't work - it really seems to depend on how the night runs (and every week is different). A one race final means a competitor knows who he has to pass to win or podium, and the fans can understand that as it unfolds. Three heats can see a "winner" declared without he or she ever winning a race (confusing for fans), and a certain driver making huge gains from his back grid if that just happens to be, through luck of the draw, the race with the big train wreck in it (or he who has a back grid in the next race when half a dozen drivers either can't front or can't be bothered fixing their car as their chances for that year are gone). What three heats does though is pit ALL of the top drivers together for a lot more laps, and there's something to be said for that too. But for the above reasons sometimes the most "consistent" driver is actually only the "luckiest". The 3 heat final was designed to reward he or she who passed the most cars. However, the grids are slightly unbalanced, track conditions change and the number of cars starting each race usually varies. Where the track is difficult to pass on, each driver suffers either the advantage or disdvantage of starting either in front of or behind certain competitors in 2 of the 3 races, unbalancing things even more when you might have two hotshots very equal. It might also occur that, due to grid draws, these two hotshots never see each other all night, meaning the title is decided on them racing others and not each other. I also feel that a one-race final generates less carnage, at least when it matters most (in the final race itself), as the grid will be formed basically in order of pace and not all mixed up like in the heats. Therefore, 3 heats + a one-race final is arguably the best format of all for the non-contact classes. It benefits those who are consistent through the heats by rewarding them with a front grid, while still keeping alive the hopes of somebody who has had a bad night, IF they are good enough. Barry B |
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Post by Jamo on Jan 28, 2015 11:06:51 GMT 12
Isnt it about time we focused on the competitors requirements rather than spectators wanting to see carnage.All that big fields do is help reduce the number of competitors thru damage related expenses as we have already seen.The 1 big race final at the end of the night just means sometimes the winner has more luck than the rest of the field in that 1 race,rather than over 3 heats where the winner is usaully the most consistant driver. Both work and both don't work - it really seems to depend on how the night runs (and every week is different). A one race final means a competitor knows who he has to pass to win or podium, and the fans can understand that as it unfolds. Three heats can see a "winner" declared without he or she ever winning a race (confusing for fans), and a certain driver making huge gains from his back grid if that just happens to be, through luck of the draw, the race with the big train wreck in it (or he who has a back grid in the next race when half a dozen drivers either can't front or can't be bothered fixing their car as their chances for that year are gone). What three heats does though is pit ALL of the top drivers together for a lot more laps, and there's something to be said for that too. But for the above reasons sometimes the most "consistent" driver is actually only the "luckiest". The 3 heat final was designed to reward he or she who passed the most cars. However, the grids are slightly unbalanced, track conditions change and the number of cars starting each race usually varies. Where the track is difficult to pass on, each driver suffers either the advantage or disdvantage of starting either in front of or behind certain competitors in 2 of the 3 races, unbalancing things even more when you might have two hotshots very equal. It might also occur that, due to grid draws, these two hotshots never see each other all night, meaning the title is decided on them racing others and not each other. I also feel that a one-race final generates less carnage, at least when it matters most (in the final race itself), as the grid will be formed basically in order of pace and not all mixed up like in the heats. Therefore, 3 heats + a one-race final is arguably the best format of all for the non-contact classes. It benefits those who are consistent through the heats by rewarding them with a front grid, while still keeping alive the hopes of somebody who has had a bad night, IF they are good enough. Barry B If last weekend showed anything to me it is that trying to run 3 x 20 car heat races and then a one off 25 lap race at the end on the same night is far to hard on the track, drivers and the crews. Asking way to much. We were lucky not to be down to 10 cars for the title race!! Who wants to see a title race with bugger all cars surviving to take part in it!! The argument about doing away with the 3 heat deal to avoid the carnage / protest factor does not wash with me, especially when you still run the 3 heat format before the title race anyway!! False logic. |
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2015 11:46:25 GMT 12
That's the downside of it Jamo, track condition and crew/driver pressure (although in saying that, with a one-race final there's no need to run 20 lap heats IMHO). I'm not sure what the answer is, as two heats and a final seems to throw up a few curve balls in that with one bad heat, specially if it's your front one, you're basically a gone-burger anyway.
It's dead fair on the grids though, with just the 2 heats, better on the track surface and better for the drivers and crews. Huntly ran an awesome NZ Super Saloon title a few years back with 3 heats and a final, ditto with the NZ Midgets there, but I guess like most formats they work sometimes and not others....
We sure can't afford for all of our classes to be running their NZ title over a series though, THAT I do know!!
Mind you, now we're getting into formats and a little away from epmurc's original question........
Barry B
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Post by Jamo on Jan 28, 2015 11:58:59 GMT 12
That's the downside of it Jamo, track condition and crew/driver pressure (although in saying that, with a one-race final there's no need to run 20 lap heats IMHO). I'm not sure what the answer is, as two heats and a final seems to throw up a few curve balls in that with one bad heat, specially if it's your front one, you're basically a gone-burger anyway. It's dead fair on the grids though, with just the 2 heats, better on the track surface and better for the drivers and crews. Huntly ran an awesome NZ Super Saloon title a few years back with 3 heats and a final, ditto with the NZ Midgets there, but I guess like most formats they work sometimes and not others.... We sure can't afford for all of our classes to be running their NZ title over a series though, THAT I do know!! Mind you, now we're getting into formats and a little away from epmurc's original question........ Barry B Heats on Sunday were 15 lappers and not 20 but I still maintain that running 3 x heats with 20 cars and then expecting all of them to then do a 25 lapper is crazy. So do the majority of the drivers I spoke to on the night. I would hazard a guess that more than one of the super saloon drivers would have had the same opinion when they ran that format as well. Great for the crowd but no so good for the drivers and crews. IMHO of course! And the quick and easy answer to Crumpys question is yes, we do need two nights to run the NZ title. |
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Post by GavS on Jan 28, 2015 12:20:48 GMT 12
Quick answer YES
The NZ sprintcars this year are a 1 nighter, for that reason alone we are not crossing the ditch for a 1 night deal, as arn't 95 % of the SI guys
I still feel the BEST format was that used for the NZ sprintcars at cromwell, Slit into groups raced each other groups over the 2 nights 5 heats in total, 3 the 1st night and 2 the 2nd, then a 25 lap feature winner takes it all. at the end of teh night the crowd knows the first over the line is 1nz, not waiting for points to be added ect ect
adn those traveling, even if they didnt make it into the feature still raced 5 heats
my 2 cents
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Post by epmurc on Jan 28, 2015 20:37:44 GMT 12
So far I'd not really want any of you debating for my life, haven't seen much in the way of arguments to back up the opinions  Yes it's a long way to go for one night of racing, but no further than it would be for two. Got a bit off track with the format discussion but just to add my opinion, the three heats for a final option is probably better. As an example, Luke Keegan got bashed out of Heat 1 in the Dirt Cup last year but was still good enough to A/ qualify for the final and B/ come from well back on the grid to a top 5 finish. If had been just a 3 points scoring heats format, he would have been gone at the start of the night after about 3 laps of racing. But back to my argument................ Still have yet to see a counter argument for the two night format to eliminate, in this particular case, just 6 cars. Yes my main thrust is cost. Ignoring extra time off work for all the drivers, crews and travelling supporters, the actual dollar value for feeding the car and crew and accommodation, you wouldn't see much (if any) change out of $500 per night per team. As well as that, there is the increased risk of accident damage, again for the sake of just 6 cars (or maybe eight on a really good year). Two groups, three 12 - 15 lap heats each for grids and a 25 lap final for the top 20 qualifiers. 7 races, 115 laps in total and all done in the one night. Just wondering how many Sprint Cars have attended the NZ Champs over the last 2 - 3 years. If the numbers are around the same as the Mods, maybe that's why this year's edition is only over 1 night. |
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Post by Speedway Central (David) on Jan 28, 2015 20:57:55 GMT 12
Long way from cromwell to auckland for 1 night then 6 day off and then
dirt cup.
Wouldnt it be good this year if WP run NZ Champs then Huntly ran Wednesday meeting then Dirt cup on Saturday. A good Fri/Sat/Wed/Sat of racing and Holiday in between.
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Post by epmurc on Jan 28, 2015 21:53:23 GMT 12
Long way from cromwell to auckland for 1 night then 6 day off and then dirt cup. Wouldnt it be good this year if WP run NZ Champs then Huntly ran Wednesday meeting then Dirt cup on Saturday. A good Fri/Sat/Wed/Sat of racing and Holiday in between. The cars will come as it is the NZ Champs, regardless of whether it's a one or two day meet. Nice idea on the midweek thing but unfortunately that just adds even more cost and effort. Extra day off work for everyone, Stratty cars go home between gigs at WP, they wouldn't make a 3rd trip North and what about the southern guys? They leave their cars here and go home, so do they fly up for a 3rd meeting or just hang around the whole week? |
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Post by woodart on Jan 28, 2015 22:41:49 GMT 12
with classes like mods, saloons or sprintcars , maybe run the NZ champs on the second night of a 2 night meeting, with a different format on the first night for a separate title, that also acts as a qualifier for the right to race in the champs ? make the first night more of a feature , give spectators more of a reason to show on the first night.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 23:24:26 GMT 12
It's a real darned if you do/don't situation. I know we are talking NZ titles here but same thing applies to GP/NI/SI titles. I can remember a Nth Island Streetstock champs at Welly one year over two nights, atracted 24 entries. Awesome we thought just right, no qualifying needed. The promotion went thru the process to run one night. As soon as we announced it was a one nighter the dang phone rang off the hook with 15 late entries now that it was a one nighter. So qualifying was run from 3pm -5pm then the meeting proper at 7. If I remember rightly of all the cars still raceable after qualifying only 1 missed out on the top 26.
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Post by Tapped on Jan 28, 2015 23:55:55 GMT 12
I thought that was the nz's that got rained on the day/s before, rammers?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 2:00:28 GMT 12
I thought that was the nz's that got rained on the day/s before, rammers? Yip that happened as well, that was a VERY long day. It was about a year or two before that the event I was refering to. EDIT: ok I do 3 mins research a week and I've just done 1/3rd of that now. We had the NI's in 05/06 I sure it was that, the NZ's u refer to were 09/10 |
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