|
Post by helmetgirlpn on Apr 28, 2015 10:44:47 GMT 12
If hans devices are the way to go, how come some of the more well known superstock drivers still use a neck brace. And when I say neck brace, I mean well fitted, that is bigger at the front and is thick all the way around?? Some other superstock drivers have reverted back to using a neck brace this season also.
Snz need to look into the injury rate for and against both hans and neck braces.
|
|
|
Post by tuftefjnr on Apr 28, 2015 11:39:43 GMT 12
I am one to agree with the likes of Kerry , Sonia and Steve regarding my own personal opinion. Have not gotten into the research of things like some of you have, however what i do know is what works for me and what "I am" comfortable with. I borrowed a friends HANS for a meeting in Huntly and went about trying to hit things like i usually do. Wasnt a huge meeting but all i know is that after it i gave the HANS back and never tried one again, i was stiffer and sorer after that meeting than any i have had. I wear a foam horseshoe neck brace and have a carlos seat in the flatty. I cannot say if the new helmets contribute to injuries as i am still saving for one. lol (second hand ones welcome .) Each to their own I say as the owner of that HANS will not race without one. But I find it hard to see if any research will be effective in ruling out head injuries completley (we can only wish), at the end of the day it is a contact sport and a sport all drivers know the risks associated everytime we strap in the belts. Just my opinion Cameron 9a stockcar
|
|
|
Post by brendanlucas on Apr 28, 2015 18:58:39 GMT 12
If hans devices are the way to go, how come some of the more well known superstock drivers still use a neck brace. And when I say neck brace, I mean well fitted, that is bigger at the front and is thick all the way around?? Very good point here, & not something that all vendors will point out either.
|
|
|
Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Apr 28, 2015 19:00:50 GMT 12
I am one to agree with the likes of Kerry , Sonia and Steve regarding my own personal opinion. Have not gotten into the research of things like some of you have, however what i do know is what works for me and what "I am" comfortable with. ....... Each to their own I say as the owner of that HANS will not race without one. But I find it hard to see if any research will be effective in ruling out head injuries completley (we can only wish), at the end of the day it is a contact sport and a sport all drivers know the risks associated everytime we strap in the belts. Just my opinion Cameron 9a stockcar THANK YOU. Cameron! I spent serious coin on a decent seat, have the appropriate gear and choose which risks I will take when I race. My budget is such that I have to prioritise with every expenditure and drive to suit the conditions, my car and my budget. Given the conditions available recently I chose NOT to race. My choice, my assessment of the risk. The next day I raced, different conditions. I survived - Just!
Bugger off Hans, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry and let me make my choices, it's my credit card, my life!
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies" - Groucho Marx
|
|
|
Post by jimmyj on Apr 28, 2015 20:24:45 GMT 12
Just to add my 10 cents worth .Both times I personally have seen people die racing speedway it has had nothing to do with Hans devices versus neck braces or what ever you want to use ,.It was both competitors had borrowed helmets because they left their ones at home and after proven to be wrong size and not fitting properly .
Not a nice thing but it happens
|
|
qwerty
Junior Member
Posts: 70
|
Post by qwerty on Apr 29, 2015 16:47:07 GMT 12
There is nobody currently in our organization thar has the expertize to upskill all the local staff at each track to make sure these things fit properly. This is in relation to this earlier comment, To be honest i think if the fact that there is no one currently able to up skill staff is a main argument against making them compulsory. i think it is crazy if the organization cares about its members and spectators (they are affected by seeing unfortunate incidents)then they would spend money to get someone from out side the organisation to up skill the organisation to increase safety rather than just make excuses to not up skill staff
|
|
|
Post by midway on Apr 30, 2015 20:53:38 GMT 12
Early on in racing these high impact vehicles, those that tinker with there cars would likely come to realise if you have you're battery placed on the very front of the car, or very rear of the car, you will likely suffer from 'often broken battery syndrome'. Place that battery nearer the centre of the car, & by 'n' large, the problem goes away, no more broken batteries. As we get more powerful cars, we also find the more rear weight we can muster makes the car more driveable, & more often then not the driver finds himself sitting further back to become that added balast. Why would it not be different that the driver is more likely to absorb energy in the same way the battery (or anything) mounted away from the centre of the car. This is one of several reasons I can think of where the relevance of comparing our sport with F1 & NASCAR etc is watered down somewhat. I do believe we would be leading people up a false sense of security path by mandating the neck supports as suggested, & I do not believe the problem will be fixed by its use. BL It seems you have quite alot of wisdom along with practical science ,i actually was wondering if youve taken notice as a innocent bystander of the hell pizza hearse ,and how the driver sAt in the middle ..by allowing your crate engine to be fitted in the front engine bay ,and a box of ballast all sorts in the rear.Maybe another skeleton out of the cupboard perhaps could be the test pilot with a hans device ..and not a over century charged battery ..
|
|
|
Post by brendanlucas on May 1, 2015 8:19:00 GMT 12
Early on in racing these high impact vehicles, those that tinker with there cars would likely come to realise if you have you're battery placed on the very front of the car, or very rear of the car, you will likely suffer from 'often broken battery syndrome'. Place that battery nearer the centre of the car, & by 'n' large, the problem goes away, no more broken batteries. As we get more powerful cars, we also find the more rear weight we can muster makes the car more driveable, & more often then not the driver finds himself sitting further back to become that added balast. Why would it not be different that the driver is more likely to absorb energy in the same way the battery (or anything) mounted away from the centre of the car. This is one of several reasons I can think of where the relevance of comparing our sport with F1 & NASCAR etc is watered down somewhat. I do believe we would be leading people up a false sense of security path by mandating the neck supports as suggested, & I do not believe the problem will be fixed by its use. BL It seems you have quite alot of wisdom along with practical science ,i actually was wondering if youve taken notice as a innocent bystander of the hell pizza hearse ,and how the driver sAt in the middle ..by allowing your crate engine to be fitted in the front engine bay ,and a box of ballast all sorts in the rear.Maybe another skeleton out of the cupboard perhaps could be the test pilot with a hans device ..and not a over century charged battery .. I don't really get accused of having wisdon, but I do get accused of having lots of pizza, so I suppose you are partly correct...., but what a good idea, stack the pizza boxes up behind the driver, thats you're crumple zone right there, and something to do/eat during the red light (not red light distict) breaks. And you mentioned having the driver lie down in the centre of the car, well isn't that what they do in F1, now who is the wise man.
|
|
|
Post by tank11 on May 1, 2015 8:31:09 GMT 12
Can't see where he said to lay down the driver? Did mention a skeleton, can't see me making it to that stage.
|
|
|
Post by brendanlucas on May 1, 2015 8:57:04 GMT 12
Can't see where he said to lay down the driver? Did mention a skeleton, can't see me making it to that stage. I was using a little creative license... The report done based on NASCAR & F1 would assume certain parameters, such as; - Age group (somewhere between 18 & 40,) - Physical fitness (peak athletes nowadays, certainly not someone that would puff getting the mail in) - Car design (all similar in configuration) - Frequency (impact is not something that occurs every race, sometimes 2 or 3 times per race) - Crumple zone (cars, & often the track have built in crumple zone) The hit you occasionally get in our contact class where you might get several massive hits in very quick succesion generally from someone intent on firing you up the wall, with a second & third hit following in less than the blink of an eye, would not have been concidered in such a report. Whilst it may (or not) be true, someone spent millions of dollars on compiling a report, & there is clearly some relevance to our contact sport, there are important things that make it not completely relevant. Also, I would say some of those that have commented on this thread would have collectively spent more than a million bucks getting there information & have actual experience in this form of racing, so I really don't think it wise to dismiss such opinions lightly. My view is, until we can build sufficient crumple zone into the cars, then we really shouldn't be incrementally firming the driver up, which would mean no at this point to the head & neck restraint, but no also to the containment seat, but replace with wider seat with more foam & nets either side of helmet. BL
|
|
|
Post by tank11 on May 1, 2015 13:35:58 GMT 12
Can't see where he said to lay down the driver? Did mention a skeleton, can't see me making it to that stage. I was using a little creative license... The report done based on NASCAR & F1 would assume certain parameters, such as; - Age group (somewhere between 18 & 40,) - Physical fitness (peak athletes nowadays, certainly not someone that would puff getting the mail in) - Car design (all similar in configuration) - Frequency (impact is not something that occurs every race, sometimes 2 or 3 times per race) - Crumple zone (cars, & often the track have built in crumple zone) The hit you occasionally get in our contact class where you might get several massive hits in very quick succesion generally from someone intent on firing you up the wall, with a second & third hit following in less than the blink of an eye, would not have been concidered in such a report. Whilst it may (or not) be true, someone spent millions of dollars on compiling a report, & there is clearly some relevance to our contact sport, there are important things that make it not completely relevant. Also, I would say some of those that have commented on this thread would have collectively spent more than a million bucks getting there information & have actual experience in this form of racing, so I really don't think it wise to dismiss such opinions lightly. My view is, until we can build sufficient crumple zone into the cars, then we really shouldn't be incrementally firming the driver up, which would mean no at this point to the head & neck restraint, but no also to the containment seat, but replace with wider seat with more foam & nets either side of helmet.BL Can only use that license if you have paid the appropriate people. This is my favourite combo with the Leatt brace.
|
|
|
Post by brendanlucas on May 8, 2015 21:24:13 GMT 12
I was hoping this topic might have been thrashed a little more than it has, quite a big deal in my opinion. I’m not completely against the use of an approved neck support, for some people, rather the thought of continually (incrementally) firming the driver in an unyielding manner that in my view has led to an increase of ‘KO’s’, almost epidemic I would have thought. Have we created this problem? I think we have. Turning the clock back to when I regularly competed in the superstock class from ~ mid 90’s to early 2000’s, I can’t actually recall anyone taking a nap, I certainly never, & I rarely went past about 2 laps without hitting anyone, or being hit. So what has changed? The speeds have clearly increased, the cars designs have altered somewhat to more commonly include higher tensile materials & the drivers seated position has tended to go further back to the rear of the car, & we now commonly see the containment seat being used. Not hard to work out the faster you go, the bigger the mess, speed is obviously a factor. As a rule of thumb going by my back of the envelope math’s for every 40mm the seat is places away from the centre of the car, the velocity affect on the driver in a side on increases by 1kmh; (velocity/2) + (X/40). Eg, a car hits the wall side on at 100kph, & the drivers seat is 880mm back from centre, so (100/2) + (880/40) ~ (50) + (22) ~ 72kph. Take that seated position back 300mm, which is not uncommon, and the sum would go like this; (100/2) + (1180/40) ~ (50) + (29.5) ~ 80kph. If you add greater speed with a seated position further back in the car, then throw into the mix a ‘more or less’ unyielding containment system, I say unyielding because compared with what we did have, there really is buggar all movement allowed sideways. Some might argue that the silver bullet was around back when I raced, & yes the seated position was a extremely rearward. TMac had the ultra fast silver bullet debuted about the mid 90’s I think, & although he never really was the type of driver that went looking for trouble, I have seen him give & take some huge shunts. He did have nets though, no containment. Its speed would likely have been only marginally off what is the current top speed for supers. I believe there is a point at which the velocity of impact will exponentially increase risk of KO, & that in many cases we have exceeded that point. We don’t know the exact point, because it will vary from driver to driver, & car to car, but I think we are in the danger zone, in a way we weren’t before. Going back to this remit, as I have said, in my view it is another step in creating the perfect storm for KO’s, but, in some cases it may actually help. The important things to look out for are the drivers torso weight vs the length of shoulder belt from top of shoulder fulcrum to mounting fulcrum, if the weight is low & the belt length is short then the more likely the head will whip forward in a frontal impact compared with a heavy person with a relatively long belt from shoulder fulcrum to mount fulcrum, because after all, we all use exactly the same belt & the amount of stretch will be determined by the forces acting on it. I’m happy for any of these points to be disproven, the last thing I want to see is more drivers being adversely affected, & worse I don’t want to be the driver inflicting the injury. BL
|
|
|
Post by midway on May 8, 2015 22:38:12 GMT 12
I hope you enjoyed the pizza :)while working out the geometry,food for thought ,interesting points made ,long debate will no doubt exist over this remit ,the sport enjoys fast cars like the punters ,it is hard to change the spots on a leopard even with good research .looks like it wont happen over night if it happens at all ..
|
|
|
Post by hdr on May 11, 2015 12:02:45 GMT 12
Did you watch Nigel latter Blows Stuff up on TV last night, the tests the did with the jelly in the shopping trolley on sold impact & softened impact. You can clearly see why drivers get knocked out. You need to slow the head movement down, not stop it instantly like some of the head restraints do, and need proper padding on the halo of the seat if you have a full containment seat.
Flamecrusher had a safety seminar a few years ago & there tests that they had via NASCAR showed that. Im sure Bernie stated that he offered to present it to SNZ but they declined as they thought he was just trying to boost his business sales.
At the end of the day there is currently no product, device or system that is 100% guaranteed to fully protect you from any form of injury, they all have different areas where they protect you & fail to protect you.
I know of a driver that received a neck injury from one of the devices that SNZ have approved this year & when you put it on you can feel the pressure on the neck exactly where the injury is. Who knows what injuries he may of had without it on, but he clearly received one from wearing it.
I think SNZ should not make the devices compulsory it should be up to the driver.
Are SNZ prepared to take responsibility for a driver that receives injuries by something that they enforced without the proper research to see if it is suitable for our forms of racing.
|
|
|
Post by brendanlucas on May 11, 2015 18:11:29 GMT 12
Did you watch Nigel latter Blows Stuff up on TV last night, the tests the did with the jelly in the shopping trolley on sold impact & softened impact. You can clearly see why drivers get knocked out. You need to slow the head movement down, not stop it instantly like some of the head restraints do, and need proper padding on the halo of the seat if you have a full containment seat. I saw the Nigel Latter thing, & thought the same - a very good demonsration of what goes on. Well worth checking out.
|
|