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Post by chris13w on Apr 30, 2015 23:39:06 GMT 12
Tim has written to all Ministock competitors with some significant proposed rule changes for the Ministock class, asking for submissions from all stake holders.
The Wellington Ministock class have discussed this at tonights remit meeting and have drafted a response on some points we disagree (or agree) with.
You may or may not think the same thing, however submissions close on Monday, so if you have an interest in the class, you need to make sure you have your say - no point complaining if you don't like the changes after they have been decided!
15mm Restrictor plate – we disagree.
• Despite the significantly decreased lap times over the last 12 years, have the rate of injuries changed significantly in that time? Figures quoted over 8 seasons in 2012 seem to have fluctuated both up and down in that time, (there are no snapshot records on the SNZ website since 2012)? The highest injuries in 2012 seem to have been amongst the first year competitors, and the lowest amongst the oldest. Logically then the slower drivers have more accidents, and the fastest have the fewest - so is there an actual problem with the speed of the vehicles, or just the level of experience?
• The performance figures quoted seem odd – peak torque and peak power do not occur at the same revs, so how can they both be achieved at 72.3km/h? (Measured by a constant rolling road speed)?
• The decrease in both power and torque is significant at around 30% - is this really justified? Has such a modified engine been tried on a track – what is the increase in lap time? What are the engine characteristics, does a “standard” engine even run correctly with such a large restriction in air flow? Presumably such a radical change is also going to require significant jetting/tuning changes – increasing costs as those who can afford it will dyno tune to adjust to the changed set up, those who can’t afford it will presumably have engines wrongly jetted – possibly increasing engine failures.
• Again, is this extra expense justified when there will still be a difference between good “optimised” engines and average ones?
Nissan M30-071 Head – we disagree.
• Has any dyno or flow bench testing been done to show these heads have a power advantage, or is it just conjecture?
• The A12 engine is very popular for tuning worldwide, a Google search doesn’t show any websites claiming these specific heads to be “the performance head to have”?
• Nissan parts are getting harder to find all the time, excluding a source of components based on rumour seems over the top?
Control Camshaft – we disagree.
• The existing rule already specifies a standard OEM Cam - many engines have been impounded and inspected over recent seasons (presumably the fastest ones), can you confirm exactly how many have been found to have illegal camshafts?
• Many families competing in this class do not build their own engines, so the cost of having a $200-300 SNZ camshaft installed is no doubt going to be more like $400-500. (Incidentally, a “SNZ standard” regrind costs around $180 exchange – with around 500 Ministocks running in NZ, surely a bulk purchase of reground cams would not therefore be in the $200-300 range?) The intention of the class is that a standard road car engine can be put straight into a car and raced – the cost of doing this has just gone up by a substantial amount.
• How will this “serial numbered/coded” SNZ camshaft be inspected to still be standard, what stops someone from grinding a new profile on an SNZ numbered cam? The engine still needs to be sealed/impounded to be checked, and it’s now EXACTLY the same as the current situation, except 500 people have spent $100,000 dollars, minimum, with SNZ for NO increase in compliance over the current rule…
Racing in Both Directions – we disagree.
• Ministocks are an introductory class that trains new drivers in racing “and setting up” a Speedway vehicle. Most drivers progress to classes that race in one direction, and have asymmetric set ups for stagger, shocks, springs, etc. Stats show practically NO Youth Ministock drivers progress to Streetstocks, so why teach them techniques applicable only to this class?
• If offset chassis are such a problem, surely it would be better to tighten the chassis construction rules? Engines must be mounted on the centreline with a 25mm tolerance, how can this be turned into an extreme offset? Very few components can be radically moved around, probably the battery being the most obvious, yet fast cars have these mounted in lots of different positions.
• Faced with a situation where there is likely to be one race run “backwards” at most meetings, people will be tempted to leave the set up exactly as it currently is (especially if the car is already built that way), so optimised for probably two races, bad for one. The older, faster, drivers will still be just as fast, the younger less experienced drivers will crash… how is this an improvement?
• Head nets will now need to be installed on both sides, a doubled cost on an item that already has a limited life. How easy is it to get out of a car that now has impediments to quickly exiting the car on BOTH sides?
• Containment seats – are these designed/safe for driving in both directions?
Rolling Starts – we agree.
• These have been used at Wellington for some time now and work well.
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Post by tank11 on May 1, 2015 8:27:54 GMT 12
Tim has written to all Ministock competitors with some significant proposed rule changes for the Ministock class, asking for submissions from all stake holders. The Wellington Ministock class have discussed this at tonights remit meeting and have drafted a response on some points we disagree (or agree) with. You may or may not think the same thing, however submissions close on Monday, so if you have an interest in the class, you need to make sure you have your say - no point complaining if you don't like the changes after they have been decided! 15mm Restrictor plate – we disagree. • Despite the significantly decreased lap times over the last 12 years, have the rate of injuries changed significantly in that time? Figures quoted over 8 seasons in 2012 seem to have fluctuated both up and down in that time, (there are no snapshot records on the SNZ website since 2012)? The highest injuries in 2012 seem to have been amongst the first year competitors, and the lowest amongst the oldest. Logically then the slower drivers have more accidents, and the fastest have the fewest - so is there an actual problem with the speed of the vehicles, or just the level of experience? • The performance figures quoted seem odd – peak torque and peak power do not occur at the same revs, so how can they both be achieved at 72.3km/h? (Measured by a constant rolling road speed)? • The decrease in both power and torque is significant at around 30% - is this really justified? Has such a modified engine been tried on a track – what is the increase in lap time? What are the engine characteristics, does a “standard” engine even run correctly with such a large restriction in air flow? Presumably such a radical change is also going to require significant jetting/tuning changes – increasing costs as those who can afford it will dyno tune to adjust to the changed set up, those who can’t afford it will presumably have engines wrongly jetted – possibly increasing engine failures. • Again, is this extra expense justified when there will still be a difference between good “optimised” engines and average ones? N issan M30-071 Head – we disagree. • Has any dyno or flow bench testing been done to show these heads have a power advantage, or is it just conjecture? • The A12 engine is very popular for tuning worldwide, a Google search doesn’t show any websites claiming these specific heads to be “the performance head to have”? • Nissan parts are getting harder to find all the time, excluding a source of components based on rumour seems over the top? Control Camshaft – we disagree. • The existing rule already specifies a standard OEM Cam - many engines have been impounded and inspected over recent seasons (presumably the fastest ones), can you confirm exactly how many have been found to have illegal camshafts? • Many families competing in this class do not build their own engines, so the cost of having a $200-300 SNZ camshaft installed is no doubt going to be more like $400-500. (Incidentally, a “SNZ standard” regrind costs around $180 exchange – with around 500 Ministocks running in NZ, surely a bulk purchase of reground cams would not therefore be in the $200-300 range?) The intention of the class is that a standard road car engine can be put straight into a car and raced – the cost of doing this has just gone up by a substantial amount. • How will this “serial numbered/coded” SNZ camshaft be inspected to still be standard, what stops someone from grinding a new profile on an SNZ numbered cam? The engine still needs to be sealed/impounded to be checked, and it’s now EXACTLY the same as the current situation, except 500 people have spent $100,000 dollars, minimum, with SNZ for NO increase in compliance over the current rule… Racing in Both Directions – we disagree. • Ministocks are an introductory class that trains new drivers in racing “and setting up” a Speedway vehicle. Most drivers progress to classes that race in one direction, and have asymmetric set ups for stagger, shocks, springs, etc. Stats show practically NO Youth Ministock drivers progress to Streetstocks, so why teach them techniques applicable only to this class? • If offset chassis are such a problem, surely it would be better to tighten the chassis construction rules? Engines must be mounted on the centreline with a 25mm tolerance, how can this be turned into an extreme offset? Very few components can be radically moved around, probably the battery being the most obvious, yet fast cars have these mounted in lots of different positions. • Faced with a situation where there is likely to be one race run “backwards” at most meetings, people will be tempted to leave the set up exactly as it currently is (especially if the car is already built that way), so optimised for probably two races, bad for one. The older, faster, drivers will still be just as fast, the younger less experienced drivers will crash… how is this an improvement? • Head nets will now need to be installed on both sides, a doubled cost on an item that already has a limited life. How easy is it to get out of a car that now has impediments to quickly exiting the car on BOTH sides? • Containment seats – are these designed/safe for driving in both directions? Rolling Starts – we agree. • These have been used at Wellington for some time now and work well. Does this head come out on a OEM car? |
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Post by chris13w on May 1, 2015 9:43:41 GMT 12
I believe its a late model B310 - its an EGR head so a "Smog" head for emission control - which usually have less performance potential?
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Post by tank11 on May 1, 2015 13:37:25 GMT 12
I believe its a late model B310 - its an EGR head so a "Smog" head for emission control - which usually have less performance potential? There is a head out there being used which originates from a forklift. |
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hermo
Full Member
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Post by hermo on May 1, 2015 18:56:58 GMT 12
1 The 15 mm restrictor plate will lower the life of the engine according to two engine builders I talked to. They both say that less fuel going in will starve the two end cylinders and wear them out prematurly so that rule change should be chucked out.
2 Both these guys believe that the M30-071 head should be banned and so do I, they are obviously an advantage otherwise why would people go to the trouble of importing them to use, perhaps they could be flow tested to prove or disprove this theory. A12 heads are not in short supply at all, leaving them in will force everyone to buy one, increasing the cost of racing.
3 The camshaft is a tricky one, I personally have seen a camshaft from a ministock engine that was standard in lift but the lobe centres and duration were altered, apparently these are reasonably common. The lift can easily be measured at the track but the rest needs to have the cam removed and sent to a cam doctor machine to be checked. There is no easy way to check that the SNZ camshaft is even in the engine anyway so I think the camshaft thing is not going to help.
4 Racing in both directions is rubbish, for the reasons that Chris mentioned. Ministocks are teaching our youth how to set up and race a car that turns left, it is ridiculious to expect them to race both ways and i'm sure it would cause more accidents.
5 Rolling starts are a great idea.
If SNZ want to sort this class out they need to do more checking of cars and engines with people qualified to know what to look for. Contrary to what Chris says I don't believe that SNZ have impounded and checked many engines at all and when they did find a problem they were too gutless to do anything about it. They have the rules in place but a blind eye is often turned to any problems.
I quite often wander around the pits and look at ministocks and have seen a few things that I know to be wrong and these cars have been scrutineered and are ready to race.
A few years ago when we raced there were a couple of 12 month bans handed out and a couple of engines pulled down to the last nut and bolt, it had everyone a bit worried for a while but since then I don't recall anything the same happening, people have got a bit blaise about it and maybe if SNZ got stuck in and checked a few it might sort it out.
Just my thoughts
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Post by epmurc on May 1, 2015 20:58:38 GMT 12
The Auckland Ministock fraternity met on Wednesday and decided to vote "No" to all five proposals, not my personal preference on the rolling start remit, but we went with the majority on the night.
I agree with Hermo about SNZ being more stringent with the rules already in place rather than trying to introduce others that in some cases, would be no easier to police. I've no doubt there are some cars out there that have pushed the rules past their boundaries and a few significant penalties handed out may just be the catalyst for that sort of carry on to stop.
The only thing with the penalties is I believe they should be fines rather than suspensions. It is far more likely that any dodgy modifications have been undertaken and/or financed by the parent rather than the driver, yet it is the driver who would suffer. It would be the parent paying the fine (you would hope), so the likely culprit would receive the penalty.
Yes, there are cases of engine "professionals" doing things they weren't instructed to do and the car owner being completely unaware that was the case, but still, the driver shouldn't be held responsible for that either.
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Post by hoot72m on May 2, 2015 8:53:24 GMT 12
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Post by chris13w on May 2, 2015 12:58:27 GMT 12
That doesn't seem to tell you much at all, here is another page that says M30's are "low performance truck or van heads" datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=A-series_Cylinder_Heads#A12_M30_HeadStill doesn't say this is the "hot ticket" head to have though? I heard (so its only hearsay) that someone flow tested a range of different Nissan heads and there was nothing special about them? What would be interesting would be if SNZ had swapped one onto the car they dyno tested and see if it showed any difference in performance - it doesn't take long to swap a cylinder head. |
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Post by chris13w on May 2, 2015 13:08:25 GMT 12
If SNZ want to sort this class out they need to do more checking of cars and engines with people qualified to know what to look for. Contrary to what Chris says I don't believe that SNZ have impounded and checked many engines at all and when they did find a problem they were too gutless to do anything about it. They have the rules in place but a blind eye is often turned to any problems. I know they have sealed and inspected more than one "fast" engine, including a top Wellington car this year - nothing was found. I've also heard that they never check profiles as its too difficult, so valve lift is all that they can/do measure... and here is the problem... If you can't get caught, even when stripped and checked, someone will be doing it... Despite the preamble about cars being too fast and dangerous, I don't think that is the problem at all, the problem is the difference between fast cars and slow cars, 1) not being fair, and 2) differences in speed contribute to accidents. Being that a standard grind, or a performance grind shouldn't cost any different, why not just admit its unenforceable and make cam profiles "free" as long as lift is standard and only single valve springs are used - then they CAN simply be inspected and passed as legal. Will it cost more? No Will cars go faster? No, all that will happen is more cars will go at the same speed. Will it make life easier for SNZ and everyone else? Yes |
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Post by my2cents on May 2, 2015 15:49:13 GMT 12
Racing in both directions, ("• Ministocks are an introductory class that trains new drivers in racing “and setting up” a Speedway vehicle.")
What percentage of youth drivers are learning/doing their own setup?? 95% of youth drivers I see at the tracks come in from a race jump out of the car and go chat with their mates while Dad is doing the post race checks and setups.
Why cant we train them to go either way. At the drivers briefing Youth ministocks get told which race is going left or right so the dads can change setup. Do sprintcar drivers only do left hand turns on the road??? Stockcar/Superstocks when no drivers turn right everyone jumps on here and go on and on abouth having bumpers and not using them
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Post by chris13w on May 2, 2015 16:06:51 GMT 12
Racing in both directions, ("• Ministocks are an introductory class that trains new drivers in racing “and setting up” a Speedway vehicle.") What percentage of youth drivers are learning/doing their own setup?? 95% of youth drivers I see at the tracks come in from a race jump out of the car and go chat with their mates while Dad is doing the post race checks and setups. Why cant we train them to go either way. At the drivers briefing Youth ministocks get told which race is going left or right so the dads can change setup. Do sprintcar drivers only do left hand turns on the road??? Stockcar/Superstocks when no drivers turn right everyone jumps on here and go on and on abouth having bumpers and not using them You seem to have missed the point - the suggested change is to stop complicated set ups, not to teach people to drive both ways... And the justification used about Streetstocks seems off the mark too, they originally did this to stop people compensating for having un-locked diffs (so a bit pointless now they do) not to "teach Streetstock drivers to drive both ways". Speedway is a circle track, left turn sport, why teach anything different. And regarding set ups, my boys do their own - they drive them, I don't know how the car feels  |
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Post by tank11 on May 2, 2015 18:34:20 GMT 12
With Chris on that.
Only the first year I would do the major setting, while teaching each kid, second year overseeing, after that they were on their own.
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Post by Rusty on May 3, 2015 7:20:01 GMT 12
I believe its a late model B310 - its an EGR head so a "Smog" head for emission control - which usually have less performance potential? No it comes out in a datsun roadstar ute has bigger inlet valves and a few other pros |
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Post by Wingnut99 on May 3, 2015 7:54:23 GMT 12
I believe its a late model B310 - its an EGR head so a "Smog" head for emission control - which usually have less performance potential? There is a head out there being used which originates from a forklift. The cylinder head in question is not a Datsun cylinder head it is off Nissan powered forklifts that run on LPG. They were specially made to give the LPG forklifts equivalent power to petrol powered engines So when these heads are used on petrol there is a significant power advantage |
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Post by tank11 on May 3, 2015 14:06:40 GMT 12
Oh, com'on wingnut nissan = datsun, one and the same.
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Post by BarryB on May 3, 2015 14:17:59 GMT 12
I see Nissan revived the Datsun name in some markets a couple of years ago.
Barry B
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Post by tank11 on May 3, 2015 19:23:23 GMT 12
I believe its a late model B310 - its an EGR head so a "Smog" head for emission control - which usually have less performance potential? No it comes out in a datsun roadstar ute has bigger inlet valves and a few other pros So, if not out of a car, not legal. |
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Post by chris13w on May 4, 2015 9:10:49 GMT 12
No it comes out in a datsun roadstar ute has bigger inlet valves and a few other pros So, if not out of a car, not legal. But which is it -Roadstar ute or Nissan forklift? A12 is an A12? |
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Post by chris13w on May 4, 2015 9:13:04 GMT 12
What ever your thoughts are on this, today is the final day, so get a response in! I think if you have already sent a reply as a group, if you don't agree on it all, send in your own response as well (rolling starts for instance), consultation is with all stakeholders, so make sure you have your say. |
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Post by tank11 on May 4, 2015 18:32:42 GMT 12
So, if not out of a car, not legal. But which is it -Roadstar ute or Nissan forklift? A12 is an A12? No, not all A12's are from a car. If NOT from a car, they are NOT legal. To answer your question no, an A12 is not an A12 if its not from a car. |
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