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Post by Tony on Jan 6, 2019 8:18:10 GMT 12
I am sitting at home getting more and more frustrated with the lack of finishing order being given out at the end of each heat of the finals. There's 3 joblin 3 Rees 2 leviens and we get one to two names as they crossed the line. No points given out before the next heat and it makes it a hard frustrating watch. I was taught by barry b mal and Paul Hickey that it is imperative that you give finishing order once the cars slow down. You repeat it lots and that is what the crowd on site need and even more so us at home. It's the basic of championship commentary. Sorry but this is frustrating me and probably many others. I don't enjoy doing this as I know how tough the commentary role is but really.... I expect more as a watching punter. This is the international showcase of stockcars... I guess we can review this post after next year's NZ Supers at Wanganui, eh Mintie. I used to be a public critic of commentators. That was until the Sunday afternoon about three years ago when my name was called out over the pit speakers about five minutes before the meeting was due to start, and Moongoon asked me to be the commentator for the day as they didn't have one. There's nothing like being thrown in at the deep end! But I have learned it's not an easy job, especially when you're doing it by yourself, so I keep my thoughts on other commentators to myself. As for next year, it's going to be awesome having you on board Mintie, and we'll do our best to keep the fans informed. |
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Post by TonyT on Jan 6, 2019 8:44:01 GMT 12
I dont know exactly what went out on the livestream because a) I was trying to direct the audio flow to the crowd as my first priority (the stream director is looking after his needs), b) I didnt have a headset with the livestream audio on the whole time, and c) there were times I was talking to the crowd and was aware the stream were running interviews or adverts or whatever. However, I do know that I read out the confirmed results in full from place 1 to place 26 for each of the three heats, and I read the confirmed accumulated points after heats 2 & 3. I also talked some analysis prior to the last heat comparing points at that stage with starting grids for the final heat, speculating on how that might play out (fairly accurately as it turned out). After feedback on here from night one I also turned the PA sound level up well past the previously determined "distortion point" to try to pump more volume into the back straight.
There are always things to improve upon, things which could have gone better, lessons to be learned. But Macgorians need to appreciate there is also a balance to be struck between the granular level of detail the anoraks of Macgors so obviously crave (not a criticism, I am in that camp) and the entertainment the majority of the 7000 odd spectators want who just came for a good night out. This was talked about A LOT by the planning team before the event. Knowing that all of the detailed race information is available online at about the same time we get handed it in the box we chose to strike a balance between the number-rich audio which many in the crowd tell us is boring, yet which meets the needs of the speedway nerds (which this forum is telling us we didnt meet this time around). It is a balance, there is no perfect answer, and it will always be a compromise. For that reason there will always be criticism. We understand that, but take a few moments to think outside of your own information needs, and look at the bigger picture. Despite being "mediocre" in the eyes of some, we are pleased with our achievements last night.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 10:02:57 GMT 12
quarter to 11 sunday morning, having a cappuccino, cooking brunch...images of last nights racing drifting thru my mind...my over all impression of two nights on the stream, if scored out of 20 points I have 17.5 to 18 points as a general feeling...thats pretty good..night one was a revelation..crisp and clear, excellent camera work, particularly liked the infield camera, with a very easy to listen to commentary, im thinking if night two were as good as night one I might be scoring the stream 20 out of 20...very pleasing..and awesome for the sport.Z
PS Good on that commentator who was trying to match his commentary with the pics he was getting on his screen...seems to me that once the video and the commentary are in unison the battle to provide a decent speedway experience will have been won...last night im watching long distance shots listening to commentary about things happening on a different portion of the track...thats a pain..sort that out and your on a winner
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Post by BarryB on Jan 6, 2019 11:18:50 GMT 12
zitadel, you also have to realise that commentating from a stream screen is all very fine for those watching the stream, but when the same commentary is going out to those at the track as well, THAT crowd expects the commentary to be on the ball with where the action is.
Many years ago, and TonyT will remember this, Woodford Glen dabbled in Live Speedway television with Que TV (sp?). There was a seperate commentary team for the stream than what there was at the track. We were supposed to commentate of the screen, but that's very difficult when you know there's action happening just outside the window and you end up trying to direct the cameras to where that action is. Speedbox also used to use a dedicated commentary team at the Palmy teams. All of these extra people cost money, and I think the model The Pits uses now cutting in and out of the track commentary to conduct their own interviews etc is sustainable.
You said the camera work was better on the first night, but I've read where others said it was better on Night 2. I didn't watch night 2 so cannot give my own opinion, but it shows how different people watch and look at things differently. Which brings me to TonyT's great post made this morning. He is right. No matter what you do there will be some unhappy people. What a New Zealand Championship crowd (the anoraks) expects is totally different to what a Demo Derby and/or Fireworks crowd wants, and everything in between. How do you find that balance?
From my Night 1 viewing experience (not at the track) I did feel not enough emphasis was given to the official results, points etc from the qualifying heats. It was more middle of the road meeting type commentary, and I do miss the infield interviews of drivers while the blood is still pumping through their veins at an accelerated rate. My question is, when you're toning the commentary down to try and keep those spectators happy who say too many numbers bore them: do those just looking for a "good night out" attend the likes of a NZ Supersock Championship? With the increased gate prices, big crowds, traffic jams etc, would the average family who like to bring along their 2.5 kids and spread out a blanket and just take in the action, whatever is served up? I think personally that, for the contact classes at least (non-contact classes are much easier to follow with your own eyes), a New Zealand title needs that "anorak level" of commentary.
When I first got involved with commentary with Malcolm Sines, all we really did was deliver the information that we felt we was missing as paying spectators in the stands as we travelled to major meetings around the country, turning up at a lot of the same meetings. The advent of more reliable roving microphones and electronic lap scoring in the commentary box should of put us 75 years ahead of where we were 25 years ago as far as accurate information flow goes, but it hasn't. Paul Hickey is the undisputed master in terms of commentary box performance, Mal Sines the master of the interview, Mintie is undoubtedly the master of the between-hears damage/repair updates, but none of this is any use at all if the equipment isn't up to the task. If the track sound system cannot clearly delivery what is being said, their masters voices are wasted.
Barry B
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 11:39:10 GMT 12
I am sitting at home getting more and more frustrated with the lack of finishing order being given out at the end of each heat of the finals. There's 3 joblin 3 Rees 2 leviens and we get one to two names as they crossed the line. No points given out before the next heat and it makes it a hard frustrating watch. I was taught by barry b mal and Paul Hickey that it is imperative that you give finishing order once the cars slow down. You repeat it lots and that is what the crowd on site need and even more so us at home. It's the basic of championship commentary. Sorry but this is frustrating me and probably many others. I don't enjoy doing this as I know how tough the commentary role is but really.... I expect more as a watching punter. This is the international showcase of stockcars... BEST thing about the commentary...(night one was better than night two in my less than humble opinion) lol..but...least we didnt hear any (and i mean over both nights) we didnt hear any commentators trying to make themselves the main attraction..like we have in other years or meetings...there were no personal stories, no attempted silly jokes that backfired..no blowing wind up their own ####...who ever the guys werre they seemed to understand that they are not the show...that they are there to describe the show and to provide info...I for one really liked the move away from the me me me type of commentating that plague various meetings and streams... to the more descriptive effort over this meeting..man im judging this a very high score... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 11:46:04 GMT 12
zitadel, you also have to realise that commentating from a stream screen is all very fine for those watching the stream, but when the same commentary is going out to those at the track as well, THAT crowd expects the commentary to be on the ball with where the action is. Many years ago, and TonyT will remember this, Woodford Glen dabbled in Live Speedway television with Que TV (sp?). There was a seperate commentary team for the stream than what there was at the track. We were supposed to commentate of the screen, but that's very difficult when you know there's action happening just outside the window and you end up trying to direct the cameras to where that action is. Speedbox also used to use a dedicated commentary team at the Palmy teams. All of these extra people cost money, and I think the model The Pits uses now cutting in and out of the track commentary to conduct their own interviews etc is sustainable. You said the camera work was better on the first night, but I've read where others said it was better on Night 2. I didn't watch night 2 so cannot give my own opinion, but it shows how different people watch and look at things differently. Which brings me to TonyT's great post made this morning. He is right. No matter what you do there will be some unhappy people. What a New Zealand Championship crowd (the anoraks) expects is totally different to what a Demo Derby and/or Fireworks crowd wants, and everything in between. How do you find that balance? From my Night 1 viewing experience (not at the track) I did feel not enough emphasis was given to the official results, points etc from the qualifying heats. It was more middle of the road meeting type commentary, and I do miss the infield interviews of drivers while the blood is still pumping through their veins at an accelerated rate. My question is, when you're toning the commentary down to try and keep those spectators happy who say too many numbers bore them: do those just looking for a "good night out" attend the likes of a NZ Supersock Championship? With the increased gate prices, big crowds, traffic jams etc, would the average family who like to bring along their 2.5 kids and spread out a blanket and just take in the action, whatever is served up? I think personally that, for the contact classes at least (non-contact classes are much easier to follow with your own eyes), a New Zealand title needs that "anorak level" of commentary. When I first got involved with commentary with Malcolm Sines, all we really did was deliver the information that we felt we was missing as paying spectators in the stands as we travelled to major meetings around the country, turning up at a lot of the same meetings. The advent of more reliable roving microphones and electronic lap scoring in the commentary box should of put us 75 years ahead of where we were 25 years ago as far as accurate information flow goes, but it hasn't. Paul Hickey is the undisputed master in terms of commentary box performance, Mal Sines the master of the interview, but none of this is any use at all if the equipment isn't up to the task. If the track sound system cannot clearly delivery what is being said, their masters voices are wasted. Barry B Barry you said ,Zitadel you also have to realise that commentating from a stream screen is all very fine for those watching the stream, but when the same commentary is going out to those at the track as well, THAT crowd All I can say back is ..Im only buying the stream..thats all im interested in...for the dollars that are now being generated by the stream..we should get stream only comms...and from the best... AS for camera work ..night one was definately the better of the two..any way heres something you may or may not have an opinion on...the cameras can zoom right in or right out...but any time a camera is "filming" from the other end of the track (like so often on night two)..I can only say this..If we cant read the numbers on the side of the cars your filming..you know your shot is too far out...too far out...last night we are being shown cars going thru turns from a camera at the other end of the track..couldnt make out who the cars were because we couldnt see the numbers on the side of em...and the commentary was talking about something at a different portion of he track... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 11:46:47 GMT 12
It was great not to hear the "when I raced stockcars I did this or I did that"
No one cares, your job is to announce whats happening at the present.
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Post by Shai-tan on Jan 6, 2019 11:56:26 GMT 12
we didnt hear any commentators trying to make themselves the main attraction..like we have in other years or meetings... I for one really liked the move away from the me me me type of commentating that plague various meetings and streams... Haha never truer words spoken. Know a few of these  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 12:07:58 GMT 12
Barry, I remember the early meetings that were being streamed, most they were a complete fk up..but an excellent learning opportunity...trouble in the early days is that the streams didnt seem to get any better over time..there was no progress..and so many silly things going wrong..we kept pumping our money in and the streams seemed to stay at the same crappy standard and every time another stupid occurrence to wreck the night, thats all gone now by the look of it...only thing ill say is //the stream audience paying 65 bucks for two nights deserve to be treated like a completely separate customer than the folks who are track side...
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Post by BarryB on Jan 6, 2019 12:24:42 GMT 12
Barry, I remember the early meetings that were being streamed, most they were a complete fk up..but an excellent learning opportunity...trouble in the early days is that the streams didnt seem to get any better over time..there was no progress..and so many silly things going wrong..we kept pumping our money in and the streams seemed to stay at the same crappy standard and every time another stupid occurrence to wreck the night, thats all gone now by the look of it...only thing ill say is //the stream audience paying 65 bucks for two nights deserve to be treated like a completely separate customer than the folks who are track side... yes, it's great to be getting very reliable streams these days, although I very rarely watch more than 3-4 nights per season, usually only 1-2 outside of Palmy teams. Barry B |
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Post by TonyT on Jan 6, 2019 12:24:52 GMT 12
only thing ill say is //the stream audience paying 65 bucks for two nights deserve to be treated like a completely separate customer than the folks who are track side... Interesting comment. We were planning on having the livestream and the stadium show running the one audio source (i.e. everything on the stream would be heard in the stadium) but made a late decision to keep the audio largely separate for both - in the stadium we only cut to the livestream audio for interviews, and the streamers only cut to the commentators for the race commentary. I think in time as the stream numbers grow it will be possible to tailor even more to each audience. BTW we had 2600 streams over the two nights, at an estimated 2 people per stream thats 5200 more people watching than came though the gate (which over the two nights would have been around 14,000). So the stream audience was around 37% on top of the stadium crowd. As that percentage grows in the years ahead, so will the opportunities to do more for the streamers. |
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Post by meeaneemic on Jan 6, 2019 12:32:47 GMT 12
zitadel, you also have to realise that commentating from a stream screen is all very fine for those watching the stream, but when the same commentary is going out to those at the track as well, THAT crowd expects the commentary to be on the ball with where the action is. Many years ago, and TonyT will remember this, Woodford Glen dabbled in Live Speedway television with Que TV (sp?). There was a seperate commentary team for the stream than what there was at the track. We were supposed to commentate of the screen, but that's very difficult when you know there's action happening just outside the window and you end up trying to direct the cameras to where that action is. Speedbox also used to use a dedicated commentary team at the Palmy teams. All of these extra people cost money, and I think the model The Pits uses now cutting in and out of the track commentary to conduct their own interviews etc is sustainable. You said the camera work was better on the first night, but I've read where others said it was better on Night 2. I didn't watch night 2 so cannot give my own opinion, but it shows how different people watch and look at things differently. Which brings me to TonyT's great post made this morning. He is right. No matter what you do there will be some unhappy people. What a New Zealand Championship crowd (the anoraks) expects is totally different to what a Demo Derby and/or Fireworks crowd wants, and everything in between. How do you find that balance? From my Night 1 viewing experience (not at the track) I did feel not enough emphasis was given to the official results, points etc from the qualifying heats. It was more middle of the road meeting type commentary, and I do miss the infield interviews of drivers while the blood is still pumping through their veins at an accelerated rate. My question is, when you're toning the commentary down to try and keep those spectators happy who say too many numbers bore them: do those just looking for a "good night out" attend the likes of a NZ Supersock Championship? With the increased gate prices, big crowds, traffic jams etc, would the average family who like to bring along their 2.5 kids and spread out a blanket and just take in the action, whatever is served up? I think personally that, for the contact classes at least (non-contact classes are much easier to follow with your own eyes), a New Zealand title needs that "anorak level" of commentary. When I first got involved with commentary with Malcolm Sines, all we really did was deliver the information that we felt we was missing as paying spectators in the stands as we travelled to major meetings around the country, turning up at a lot of the same meetings. The advent of more reliable roving microphones and electronic lap scoring in the commentary box should of put us 75 years ahead of where we were 25 years ago as far as accurate information flow goes, but it hasn't. Paul Hickey is the undisputed master in terms of commentary box performance, Mal Sines the master of the interview, but none of this is any use at all if the equipment isn't up to the task. If the track sound system cannot clearly delivery what is being said, their masters voices are wasted. Barry B Barry you said ,Zitadel you also have to realise that commentating from a stream screen is all very fine for those watching the stream, but when the same commentary is going out to those at the track as well, THAT crowd All I can say back is ..Im only buying the stream..thats all im interested in...for the dollars that are now being generated by the stream..we should get stream only comms...and from the best... AS for camera work ..night one was definately the better of the two..any way heres something you may or may not have an opinion on...the cameras can zoom right in or right out...but any time a camera is "filming" from the other end of the track (like so often on night two)..I can only say this..If we cant read the numbers on the side of the cars your filming..you know your shot is too far out...too far out...last night we are being shown cars going thru turns from a camera at the other end of the track..couldnt make out who the cars were because we couldnt see the numbers on the side of em...and the commentary was talking about something at a different portion of he track... 21st season on the mic For the NZ Saloons a few days ago I commentated for both the fans at the track and the footage on the stream. I spent probably at least a third of the race following the camera on the screen and no one at the track was the wiser for it. I do agree that today's fan who pays good $$ to stream an event should also be catered for and I also think a Director should be taking 80% of their direction from an Announcers words. |
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Post by my2cents on Jan 6, 2019 12:53:34 GMT 12
[/quote]21st season on the mic For the NZ Saloons a few days ago I commentated for both the fans at the track and the footage on the stream. I spent probably at least a third of the race following the camera on the screen and no one at the track was the wiser for it. I do agree that today's fan who pays good $$ to stream an event should also be catered for and I also think a Director should be taking 80% of their direction from an Announcers words.[/quote] How does the director/camera know when you are commenting from the stream or not?  |
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Post by BarryB on Jan 6, 2019 12:58:52 GMT 12
21st season on the mic For the NZ Saloons a few days ago I commentated for both the fans at the track and the footage on the stream. I spent probably at least a third of the race following the camera on the screen and no one at the track was the wiser for it. I do agree that today's fan who pays good $$ to stream an event should also be catered for and I also think a Director should be taking 80% of their direction from an Announcers words.[/quote] How does the director/camera know when you are commenting from the stream or not? [/quote] The commentator can drop in a quick "blah blah blah cars 21 and 33 in turn 4", and that can direct the cameraman to point the camera towards turn 4 and find those car numbers if he's not already on them. A commentator's eyes will always move quicker than a camera though, so it's not easy. Barry B |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 13:11:19 GMT 12
only thing ill say is //the stream audience paying 65 bucks for two nights deserve to be treated like a completely separate customer than the folks who are track side... Interesting comment. We were planning on having the livestream and the stadium show running the one audio source (i.e. everything on the stream would be heard in the stadium) but made a late decision to keep the audio largely separate for both - in the stadium we only cut to the livestream audio for interviews, and the streamers only cut to the commentators for the race commentary. I think in time as the stream numbers grow it will be possible to tailor even more to each audience. BTW we had 2600 streams over the two nights, at an estimated 2 people per stream thats 5200 more people watching than came though the gate (which over the two nights would have been around 14,000). So the stream audience was around 37% on top of the stadium crowd. As that percentage grows in the years ahead, so will the opportunities to do more for the streamers. Gday..yes part of my reply that you have put up was to another poster, on something they said. Thanks actually..to you for being honest with your numbers, many times ( in the early days)I asked how many viewers there were and got rude responses from various folks..one or two are in this discussion...at the time I was trying to quantify dollars..I couldnt understand how the streams were staying so crappy, lol now i know you had 2600 streams at 32.50 on an average..making turn over $84000...now i really want stream only comms...good on yiz..keep getting better..keep growing |
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Post by Admin on Jan 6, 2019 13:35:46 GMT 12
Barry you said ,Zitadel you also have to realise that commentating from a stream screen is all very fine for those watching the stream, but when the same commentary is going out to those at the track as well, THAT crowd All I can say back is ..Im only buying the stream..thats all im interested in...for the dollars that are now being generated by the stream..we should get stream only comms...and from the best... AS for camera work ..night one was definately the better of the two..any way heres something you may or may not have an opinion on...the cameras can zoom right in or right out...but any time a camera is "filming" from the other end of the track (like so often on night two)..I can only say this..If we cant read the numbers on the side of the cars your filming..you know your shot is too far out...too far out...last night we are being shown cars going thru turns from a camera at the other end of the track..couldnt make out who the cars were because we couldnt see the numbers on the side of em...and the commentary was talking about something at a different portion of he track... 21st season on the mic For the NZ Saloons a few days ago I commentated for both the fans at the track and the footage on the stream. I spent probably at least a third of the race following the camera on the screen and no one at the track was the wiser for it. I do agree that today's fan who pays good $$ to stream an event should also be catered for and I also think a Director should be taking 80% of their direction from an Announcers words. That meeting rates as my best streaming experience so far this season. Commentating and camera work were both excellent. The racing was great too. |
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Post by Jeffery on Jan 6, 2019 13:52:06 GMT 12
Interesting comment. We were planning on having the livestream and the stadium show running the one audio source (i.e. everything on the stream would be heard in the stadium) but made a late decision to keep the audio largely separate for both - in the stadium we only cut to the livestream audio for interviews, and the streamers only cut to the commentators for the race commentary. I think in time as the stream numbers grow it will be possible to tailor even more to each audience. BTW we had 2600 streams over the two nights, at an estimated 2 people per stream thats 5200 more people watching than came though the gate (which over the two nights would have been around 14,000). So the stream audience was around 37% on top of the stadium crowd. As that percentage grows in the years ahead, so will the opportunities to do more for the streamers. Gday..yes part of my reply that you have put up was to another poster, on something they said. Thanks actually..to you for being honest with your numbers, many times ( in the early days)I asked how many viewers there were and got rude responses from various folks..one or two are in this discussion...at the time I was trying to quantify dollars..I couldnt understand how the streams were staying so crappy, lol now i know you had 2600 streams at 32.50 on an average..making turn over $84000...now i really want stream only comms...good on yiz..keep getting better..keep growing $84k.. not bad. Definitely going off those numbers and I guess going forward for expected numbers on big events.. commentary for live stream only is a requirement |
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Post by BarryB on Jan 6, 2019 14:05:57 GMT 12
There's arguably only 1-2 events that would attract those sort of numbers, being both nights of the Palmy Teams and the NZ Superstocks, particularly when it's held in the South Island. And maybe the World 240's with the Pommie breakfast audience. It's certainly not indicative of the average, but I think now the streams are proving more reliable than ever, from both regular providers, it can only improve from here on in.
Barry B
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Post by Jeffery on Jan 6, 2019 14:07:17 GMT 12
There's arguably only 1-2 events that would attract those sort of numbers, being both nights of the Palmy Teams and the NZ Superstocks, particularly when it's held in the South Island. And maybe the World 240's with the Pommie breakfast audience. It's certainly not indicative of the average, but I think now the streams are proving more reliable than ever, from both regular providers, it can only improve from here on in. Barry B They were the events I was implying. |
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Post by mordecai on Jan 6, 2019 14:59:00 GMT 12
Interesting comment. We were planning on having the livestream and the stadium show running the one audio source (i.e. everything on the stream would be heard in the stadium) but made a late decision to keep the audio largely separate for both - in the stadium we only cut to the livestream audio for interviews, and the streamers only cut to the commentators for the race commentary. I think in time as the stream numbers grow it will be possible to tailor even more to each audience. BTW we had 2600 streams over the two nights, at an estimated 2 people per stream thats 5200 more people watching than came though the gate (which over the two nights would have been around 14,000). So the stream audience was around 37% on top of the stadium crowd. As that percentage grows in the years ahead, so will the opportunities to do more for the streamers. Gday..yes part of my reply that you have put up was to another poster, on something they said. Thanks actually..to you for being honest with your numbers, many times ( in the early days)I asked how many viewers there were and got rude responses from various folks..one or two are in this discussion...at the time I was trying to quantify dollars..I couldnt understand how the streams were staying so crappy, lol now i know you had 2600 streams at 32.50 on an average..making turn over $84000...now i really want stream only comms...good on yiz..keep getting better..keep growing So how much of the 84k goes too the chch track if any |
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