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Post by nottosure on Dec 4, 2019 8:16:22 GMT 12
With there now possibly 14-15 teams at this event (A,B,C,G,GB,H,K,M,N(?),Px2,R,S,V,W) will the PN Promotion consider running a 3 tier finals format (top,middle and bottom 4) or knockout top 8 format like the Stockcars do? I know it will come down to a number of factors, but the teams are there to teams race and some only do 2 all weekend then consolations on Saturday. Being no groups it's also alot more of a lottery around who draws who for the first nigh. There's now possibly 2 or so teams who could win both their races the first night but not be in the top 4, which you'd feel ripped off about. Or is there another way/format to accommodate this amount of teams?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 9:02:27 GMT 12
This might seem hard to follow but it's really not...
If they can get to 16 teams (a big ask I know, but not impossible) run 2 groups. First race is against another team from yr group. Giving 4 winners and 4 losers from each group.
Each winner races another winner from their own group, each loser races a loser from their group. The 2 teams with 2 wins go thru, while the 4 teams with 1 win /1 loss race another 1&1 team.
Each group now has 4 teams with 2 wins who qualify thru.
Night 2
Each team meets an opponent from the other group.
The 4 winners make up the semi finalists and then the 2 winners are the finalists.
You can do the same with the 8 teams with 2 losses from night 1 if you want to.
Pros - there are no races between teams who have already raced each other that weekend. I hate it when that happens.
Every race is first across the line, no points involved anywhere.
Cons - 4 teams who have 1 win/1loss on night one have to do 3 races on night 1
The semi finalists and finalists (and 5th,6tg,7th,8th teams of u race down that far) do 3 races on night 2.
The teams in Huntly did it, and the stockcars do it. I know it's hard but not without precident.
That's my how it should be teams champs anyway FWIW
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Post by hbhornets on Dec 4, 2019 10:48:40 GMT 12
16 teams is best straight knock out. also would like to see of all teams remaining race a teams/individual title. 32 superstocks instead of consolations races. 4 from every team outside the 8. and keep the burger king series. think rammers is onto something. rammers for pm? im starting to warm up to the idea.
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Post by Colin E on Dec 4, 2019 11:39:09 GMT 12
Each Team has 6 Cars per Team
4 groups of 4
Night one each team in each group races each other, so 3 Races each.
Night 2 the Group winners race of for Semis and Finals
And the 2nd place getters race for seedings for next year and the same for 3rd and 4th placegetters.
Sounds simple while Im sitting at my Keyboard, but not sure of logistics, but back in the good old days lol
each Team had 3 races on night one.
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Post by mudman on Dec 4, 2019 11:44:37 GMT 12
If 16 teams fronted you could go with 4 groups of 4 each team races each other in the group, so 3 races on the first night. Can then break it down to top 8 and race for the cup bottom 8 race for the plate. The more teams racing the better. consultation races can often be time to slip off for a beer and a hotdog.
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rik
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Post by rik on Dec 5, 2019 8:11:23 GMT 12
16 teams also breaks down into a straight knock out with every team doing 4 races. The winner would be the only team to win all 4 races The second night would end with every team racing for a position which would then seed them into the following year.
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Post by BarryB on Dec 5, 2019 10:39:11 GMT 12
If 16 teams fronted you could go with 4 groups of 4 each team races each other in the group, so 3 races on the first night. Can then break it down to top 8 and race for the cup bottom 8 race for the plate. The more teams racing the better. consultation races can often be time to slip off for a beer and a hotdog. So that'd be 24 teams races on the first night, about twice what we have now, so unachievable. Mouth watering, but it's not gonna happen. Barry B |
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Post by Regan O'Brien on Dec 5, 2019 11:33:10 GMT 12
If 16 teams fronted you could go with 4 groups of 4 each team races each other in the group, so 3 races on the first night. Can then break it down to top 8 and race for the cup bottom 8 race for the plate. The more teams racing the better. consultation races can often be time to slip off for a beer and a hotdog. 3 teams race on one night is pretty hard out for the car, crew and the drivers. |
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Post by mudman on Dec 5, 2019 12:55:37 GMT 12
If 16 teams fronted you could go with 4 groups of 4 each team races each other in the group, so 3 races on the first night. Can then break it down to top 8 and race for the cup bottom 8 race for the plate. The more teams racing the better. consultation races can often be time to slip off for a beer and a hotdog. 3 teams race on one night is pretty hard out for the car, crew and the drivers. Maybe allow teams to bring a 6th car n driver like Rotorua done a few years back? It’s probably too many races for 1 night but with the possibility of 16 teams changes need to be made for a fair competition |
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Post by BarryB on Dec 5, 2019 12:55:50 GMT 12
If 16 teams fronted you could go with 4 groups of 4 each team races each other in the group, so 3 races on the first night. Can then break it down to top 8 and race for the cup bottom 8 race for the plate. The more teams racing the better. consultation races can often be time to slip off for a beer and a hotdog. 3 teams race on one night is pretty hard out for the car, crew and the drivers. Three is extremely tough, and you'll get some races with teams only able to front with 2-3 cars. And this is only Night 1 according to those above!! Although some answer it by having six-car teams. Palmy would need to seat 50,000, or sell tickets at $100 per night, to pay for 16 x 6 car Teams, just sayin'..... Barry B |
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Post by nottosure on Dec 5, 2019 13:35:02 GMT 12
Totally realise BarryB that cost will be a massive factor, but feel the meeting needs a change to the format to accommodate the number of teams now. 12 teams 4x3 groups was the optimum. You race twice in your group against each team, you pretty much control your own destiny as you don't need to worry about any other teams in the other groups for the first night. Now each team has 2 races and needs to be in the top 4 out of 14 or so teams, meaning points racing can often make boring racing and being in and winning 2 hard teams races may come to nothing. Huntly showed how good first past the post is.
Imagine if individual qualifying for Championships used the same logic and the top 26 came from those highest on points out of any group. Any number of factors could make any group harder or easier to qualify from, same as teams racing.
I guess the PN Promotion already carry 8 teams through to the 2nd night, surely there must be a way that all 8 could start the night with a chance of still winning it (not aim for 3rd which is stupid on its own), and the other teams have 1-2 more teams races each rather than consolation races.
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Post by knownotmuch on Dec 5, 2019 13:46:13 GMT 12
What I would like to see is 4 groups of 4 with each team seeded on there place last year. Each group would have a top seed (1st to 4th) a second seed (5th to 8th) a third seed (9th to 12th) and fourth seed being the remaining teams from last year and any newcomers like the Kings. The
first round have seed 1 vs 4 then seed 2 vs 3 third round 3 vs 4 then 1 vs 2. in theory (although not necessarily in practise) each team would have a harder match up and a easier one. The first seeds get the biggest gap between races, just reward for their performance last time, seed 3 has the smallest gap but don't meet the first seeds so seems fair. Night two would be exactly as Rotorua and Stratford run the Stockcar teams, knockout quarter and semifinals. To me it is so obvious that teams should be allowed to run two reserves and should have been allowed to for years. This would reduces the likelihood of the 3 cars vs 4 scenario dramatically and more importantly make it easier for drivers that are injured to sit out which some have reluctant to do in the pass. I know some teams may not always be able to get 6 drivers but if they are ok to face the possibility of the races on night to without a second reserve, then no problem.
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fonzy
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Post by fonzy on Dec 5, 2019 14:15:52 GMT 12
Auckland ran a 14 car format years ago. 7 races and 7 winners progress, the rest into a 3 car per team repecharge. Winner takes all to make it 8 teams in quarter finals.
Could be done in Palmy with 14 teams. 1st round of racing, then repecharge then 4 quarter finals. Still gives you the same 8 team format for the second night thats been run in Palmy for the last few years
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Post by hbhornets on Dec 5, 2019 14:27:52 GMT 12
for one thing 24 races a night is hard work. to much asking guys to do three is hard also on budgets. but lets be real. 15 teams is most likely. and 3 groups of 5. top of each group gets a quarter final. and 3 highest losers to make up hard group. then marble draw to decide quarter finals. as with this format. who races who predicts the winner. something bruce doesnt want to leave to chance i would say. thats what has happened in the stockcars. the easiest run into the finals gets w. and that 14 team format didn't work did it. only one team came out for the final. what a cockup.
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Post by BarryB on Dec 5, 2019 14:40:48 GMT 12
Totally realise BarryB that cost will be a massive factor, but feel the meeting needs a change to the format to accommodate the number of teams now. 12 teams 4x3 groups was the optimum. You race twice in your group against each team, you pretty much control your own destiny as you don't need to worry about any other teams in the other groups for the first night. Now each team has 2 races and needs to be in the top 4 out of 14 or so teams, meaning points racing can often make boring racing and being in and winning 2 hard teams races may come to nothing. Huntly showed how good first past the post is. Imagine if individual qualifying for Championships used the same logic and the top 26 came from those highest on points out of any group. Any number of factors could make any group harder or easier to qualify from, same as teams racing. I guess the PN Promotion already carry 8 teams through to the 2nd night, surely there must be a way that all 8 could start the night with a chance of still winning it (not aim for 3rd which is stupid on its own), and the other teams have 1-2 more teams races each rather than consolation races. I agree on their being 8 teams still able to win going in to Night 2. And that's easily done, as has been done in the Stockcar Teams before. 1 vs 8 down to 4 vs 5. The night 1 draw plays too bag a part at the moment, on who can still possibly win Night 2. 8 teams, the top qualifier still gets an advantage by facing team 8 first up, but any one of the 8 remaining teams can still win if they're good enough. Barry B |
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Post by tony27 on Dec 5, 2019 14:43:31 GMT 12
Reality is at Palmy you still have to win the race to get through, people are making it sound like teams are losing both races & still making the second night. If you lose your first race you sure as hell need to make sure you asolutely dominate in the second by winning & stopping as many opposition cars as possible to get maximum points, isn't that what makes for a good spectacle?
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Post by nottosure on Dec 5, 2019 15:00:22 GMT 12
Reality is at Palmy you still have to win the race to get through, people are making it sound like teams are losing both races & still making the second night. If you lose your first race you sure as hell need to make sure you asolutely dominate in the second by winning & stopping as many opposition cars as possible to get maximum points, isn't that what makes for a good spectacle? Ahh not sure where you're reading that but it's exactly the opposite, teams are winning 2 races and missing out on making the finals, now more likely aswell with more teams entering. Has happened a few times in the last 5 years, even teams going unbeaten all weekend and only ending up 5th. |
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Post by tank11 on Dec 5, 2019 17:10:04 GMT 12
16 teams
1v16, 8v9, 12v5, 13v4, 3v14, 6v11, 10v7, 15v2
All goes well 1 and 2 meet in the final
1 will meet 4 before they meet 2.
3 may knock out 2, therefore meet 1 in the final.
Every team is seeded.
Then race 1v2, 3v4, 5v6 and 7v8
Next is race 1v2 and 3v4
Final is next
4 races and we have a winner, not sure where this 3 races each night is?
First past the post wins.
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Post by tony27 on Dec 5, 2019 18:37:41 GMT 12
Reality is at Palmy you still have to win the race to get through, people are making it sound like teams are losing both races & still making the second night. If you lose your first race you sure as hell need to make sure you asolutely dominate in the second by winning & stopping as many opposition cars as possible to get maximum points, isn't that what makes for a good spectacle? Ahh not sure where you're reading that but it's exactly the opposite, teams are winning 2 races and missing out on making the finals, now more likely aswell with more teams entering. Has happened a few times in the last 5 years, even teams going unbeaten all weekend and only ending up 5th. My point is that all teams know that having 1 car scoring points isn't enough to get through if all the other points in a race are taken by the losing team, they really need to dominate the other team while keeping all their cars mobile I'm not a fan of you lose your first race you pack up & go home because you have no possibility of making the second night which as more teams turn up becomes more likely |
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Post by sonic33 on Dec 5, 2019 19:35:15 GMT 12
This will not be a stunning post, just to let you know.   There are some ok formats mentioned but soo many variations depending on teams entered. I would like teams to be entered by end of year, and then come up with a format. I am thinking not 12 and prob not 16. Most likely will be 14 or 15. Yes I know we are sometimes days out from the event when we are still chasing teams. However this year seems best in a long time that teams that are attending can be named (not drivers). Heck, Huntly can name teams for next Nov. Whether that happens we will seen. The trick that will be probably impossible will be no points racing, and no instant knockout after the teams first race. Also no more than 2 teams races on night one per team. If that involves a team having a bye ( would rather that be random draw thing i.e the team that draws marble 6 doesn't race the first round. Top seed bye wouldn't work) then that works for me. Just read that back and it sounds confusing to me. What ever format, I would like to see 8 teams into night 2. two minds whether all 8 can win the title, or only the top 4 after night 1. There has been some very brutal semis that have left one team depleted come finals time and there have been some awesome races to get 3rd and 4th for next years seedings. Is this part broke? In saying that a team that can go 8th vs 1st and keeps winning deserves the title. I will now go away and find a 14 or 15 team format that has no points races, and possibly a wild card bye ( not top seed) that has any team only racing twice on night one, and 8 teams into night two. I may have just written down genius right there! Back shortly. |
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