SNZ Remits - Stockcar Quick change diffs (Read 9,810 times)

[mcfly]

Mar 23, 2014 13:20:30 GMT 12 @zitadel said:

if a guy wants a quickchange diff so he can run easily at various tracks and have a decent ratio when he gets there why not let him? You get your choice where you spend your money on your car...some guys have thousands 10K to 30k)and more spent on their motors and no one blinks an eyelid....whats the difference...high rise carbies...chassis worth heaps due to being built out of expensive steel and weighing just over legal, thousands in 9 inch diffs... i dont want to go anywhere near that sort of expense... my motor cost 1500 bucks to do..I spent maybe 1500 more on computer and a second hand injection manifold and new holley, my whole car on the trailer only cost 3500..ive put a little in the trailer, im waiting to hear how much ive spent on the chassis so far (not much, I dont want to be embarrassed when the bill appears and not be able to pay it) so i can order more work or take it away from the workshop...it came with a toyo diff in it...and if I was allowed to put my QC in it i reckon my whole kit would still cost less than 7500 to 8k including the trailer...now wheres the arguement against allowing me to use a second hand QC diff? it cant be cost..I got the least expensive set up in the land and that includes new legal rear shocks.. so what im hearing is that some guys have spent so much and lifted the sport so high that folks are scared to let them go any further..I think its sad if you so desperate to win in the B grade your spending the sort of money that blows the field out the door..while at the same time the guy who is playing to the general idea of the class, the original intent..is being penalised...A QC diff wont make your motor any quicker or stronger, its a bit lighter and easier to change ratios thats all....30k 40k 50k stockcars what a joke.. same with extractors..second hand extractors all over the net for sweet frikk all.. cant use em to lift my motor a bit......but I can go and buy all new highest tech internals etc....its a crazy mess...maybe SNZ should go and tap a few of these guys on the shoulder and ask them to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves is the B grade really worth spending all that money in.

Surely you cant be serious zitadel? Quick change diffs and extractors were allowed in the B grade stockcars when the original rules for standard stocks were drawn up. The reason the standard stock rules were formed, and QC diffs, extractors, after market race type suspension components etc were not allowed in the original rules was because the cost of cars and difference in performance across the class had got out of hand (anything sounding familiar?). Now here you are suggesting that adding the QC diffs and extractors back in will make it cheaper? Really? Exactly the same argument (you know the one - the original car ones are now rare and hard to get and costing more, cheaper to buy racing ones because they last longer, rod ends/ohallerans last longer than tractor links so work out cheaper. bla bla) was raised when those who had plenty to spend started fitting after market suspension components that were clearly against the rules. Whether these statements were true or not is irrelevant when you consider that these components lifted the performance of the cars, which was against the intent of the class and the reason the rules were originally formed. It is true that those who have the money will always spend more and push the rules, it has been mentioned from others on this discussion that some get performance by driving skill and car set up and not by spending moon beams on engines, I agree with this. But I also think that allowing these aftermarket items in to the rules has created the divide we now see between the top and the average.
Through the mid to late nineties it did not really matter what car you had, all were competitive. The same cannot be said now. Have a look at a rule book from the early to mid 90's and compare it to todays and you will be able to see why we have the divide that we do now. Leave this class alone (or better still, take it back to where it was) and go play with a superstock if you want all the flash bits.

[Deleted]

Well said Mcfly - Bring back the STANDARD to stockcar racing. Would make it more enjoyable for all concerned (and slower, so in effect less damage, more reliability, and less injuries!) without all the highrise carbs, $$$ suspension etc that has crept in due to loopholes in the rules.

[nogrip-31gm]

all motors should be STOCK, straight from a rd car, no big pistons,cams etc...keep it cheap and simple...same with suspension and diffs..

[Deleted]

Mar 23, 2014 16:01:14 GMT 12 @clive said:

Mar 23, 2014 10:31:48 GMT 12 @zitadel said:

what nails to what coffin Clive..im seeing more stocks being built all the time..its the largest class...coffin? what coffin

The coffin relating to affordability. Yes more stockcars are being built, none have q/c diffs in them though! Put two cars for sale side by side, identical except one has a q/c, the other a standard diff. Which is going to have the higher price attached? That is the point I am making - Stockcars are already expensive enough to build / buy, which has gone against the intent of the class.
All adding q/c diffs to the class will do (other than make it easier to change diff gears) is drive the price up in the market.
If the q/c diffs are allowed, will be interesting to see how they mount brakes etc without birdcages etc being allowed in the stockcar class - enclose the axles maybe?

there have been independant rear ends used in stock cars before - not technically open tube, but a grey area. you mount the brakes on the hub carriers.

Birdcages are only illegal because Q/C's are illegal - a floating brake setup as is currently legal would work fine and is very close to being a birdcage anyway.

[Deleted]

Yes there are options available to imitate the birdcage setup, I think the only difference is that you are not allowed to run bearings on Stockcars? I wouldn't like to see a non bearing setup running on an open tube axle - I wouldn't think it would last too long!

[Deleted]

Mar 23, 2014 17:18:04 GMT 12 @clive said:

Yes there are options available to imitate the birdcage setup, I think the only difference is that you are not allowed to run bearings on Stockcars? I wouldn't like to see a non bearing setup running on an open tube axle - I wouldn't think it would last too long!

No actual rule against them yet - its a loophole that hasn't yet been exploited {SSSSHHHH!!! dont let the big buck guys know !!} but the current setups come close to using bearings anyway.

Im sitting here with the rule book open while I type this - I think Im reading it right, have made mistakes before though.

I believe the birdcages may be considered illegal because alot of them a aluminum? aluminum is illegal on stockcar rear ends...

[tank11]

Open tube axles are illegal as well.

[Deleted]

Mar 23, 2014 16:34:47 GMT 12 mcfly said:

Mar 23, 2014 13:20:30 GMT 12 @zitadel said:

if a guy wants a quickchange diff so he can run easily at various tracks and have a decent ratio when he gets there why not let him? You get your choice where you spend your money on your car...some guys have thousands 10K to 30k)and more spent on their motors and no one blinks an eyelid....whats the difference...high rise carbies...chassis worth heaps due to being built out of expensive steel and weighing just over legal, thousands in 9 inch diffs... i dont want to go anywhere near that sort of expense... my motor cost 1500 bucks to do..I spent maybe 1500 more on computer and a second hand injection manifold and new holley, my whole car on the trailer only cost 3500..ive put a little in the trailer, im waiting to hear how much ive spent on the chassis so far (not much, I dont want to be embarrassed when the bill appears and not be able to pay it) so i can order more work or take it away from the workshop...it came with a toyo diff in it...and if I was allowed to put my QC in it i reckon my whole kit would still cost less than 7500 to 8k including the trailer...now wheres the arguement against allowing me to use a second hand QC diff? it cant be cost..I got the least expensive set up in the land and that includes new legal rear shocks.. so what im hearing is that some guys have spent so much and lifted the sport so high that folks are scared to let them go any further..I think its sad if you so desperate to win in the B grade your spending the sort of money that blows the field out the door..while at the same time the guy who is playing to the general idea of the class, the original intent..is being penalised...A QC diff wont make your motor any quicker or stronger, its a bit lighter and easier to change ratios thats all....30k 40k 50k stockcars what a joke.. same with extractors..second hand extractors all over the net for sweet frikk all.. cant use em to lift my motor a bit......but I can go and buy all new highest tech internals etc....its a crazy mess...maybe SNZ should go and tap a few of these guys on the shoulder and ask them to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves is the B grade really worth spending all that money in.

Surely you cant be serious zitadel? Quick change diffs and extractors were allowed in the B grade stockcars when the original rules for standard stocks were drawn up. The reason the standard stock rules were formed, and QC diffs, extractors, after market race type suspension components etc were not allowed in the original rules was because the cost of cars and difference in performance across the class had got out of hand (anything sounding familiar?). Now here you are suggesting that adding the QC diffs and extractors back in will make it cheaper? Really? Exactly the same argument (you know the one - the original car ones are now rare and hard to get and costing more, cheaper to buy racing ones because they last longer, rod ends/ohallerans last longer than tractor links so work out cheaper. bla bla) was raised when those who had plenty to spend started fitting after market suspension components that were clearly against the rules. Whether these statements were true or not is irrelevant when you consider that these components lifted the performance of the cars, which was against the intent of the class and the reason the rules were originally formed. It is true that those who have the money will always spend more and push the rules, it has been mentioned from others on this discussion that some get performance by driving skill and car set up and not by spending moon beams on engines, I agree with this. But I also think that allowing these aftermarket items in to the rules has created the divide we now see between the top and the average.
Through the mid to late nineties it did not really matter what car you had, all were competitive. The same cannot be said now. Have a look at a rule book from the early to mid 90's and compare it to todays and you will be able to see why we have the divide that we do now. Leave this class alone (or better still, take it back to where it was) and go play with a superstock if you want all the flash bits.




Yes Mcfly I am serious, but I never mentioned after market race suspension, And Yes I am suggesting that adding QC and extractors will make it cheaper for stocks to run better for less money. Oh you had to ask again? Really...Yes really! Do all you folks go out a buy brand new? I cant keep up with that so I buy 2nd hand....

Ever have a mate who popped a set of extractors on his road car or did you do it yourself maybe, ...gets you a nice lift out of what you already have and an absolute truck load less expensive than doing a decent breathing top end, ....Further...Have you seen the price for a decent diff head these days?...the head alone costs more than half this old QC... how many do you need if you travel? I know other fellas say just change tyre sizes or inflate or deflate your rear tyres but man thats just so "road side repair" in this day and age...good for a changing surface over gthe evening I would think but not if your moving from track to track.. I dont believe thats a suitable fix for the top teams is it?...would the top race camps change the size of tyres only before an event or change the diff head for best ratio if theyre not racing at home? I dont know but I wouldnt have a big money motor and not have a couple or three diff heads...would you?

I believe it was correct to have QC and extractors in the original set of rules...(being allowed them doesnt mean you have to have them)...just because the governing body possibly let people run over the top of them and stretch the rules in other areas doesn't mean the original idea was wrong. Z

[mcfly]

Mar 23, 2014 18:30:46 GMT 12 @zitadel said:

Mar 23, 2014 16:34:47 GMT 12 mcfly said:

Surely you cant be serious zitadel? Quick change diffs and extractors were allowed in the B grade stockcars when the original rules for standard stocks were drawn up. The reason the standard stock rules were formed, and QC diffs, extractors, after market race type suspension components etc were not allowed in the original rules was because the cost of cars and difference in performance across the class had got out of hand (anything sounding familiar?). Now here you are suggesting that adding the QC diffs and extractors back in will make it cheaper? Really? Exactly the same argument (you know the one - the original car ones are now rare and hard to get and costing more, cheaper to buy racing ones because they last longer, rod ends/ohallerans last longer than tractor links so work out cheaper. bla bla) was raised when those who had plenty to spend started fitting after market suspension components that were clearly against the rules. Whether these statements were true or not is irrelevant when you consider that these components lifted the performance of the cars, which was against the intent of the class and the reason the rules were originally formed. It is true that those who have the money will always spend more and push the rules, it has been mentioned from others on this discussion that some get performance by driving skill and car set up and not by spending moon beams on engines, I agree with this. But I also think that allowing these aftermarket items in to the rules has created the divide we now see between the top and the average.
Through the mid to late nineties it did not really matter what car you had, all were competitive. The same cannot be said now. Have a look at a rule book from the early to mid 90's and compare it to todays and you will be able to see why we have the divide that we do now. Leave this class alone (or better still, take it back to where it was) and go play with a superstock if you want all the flash bits.




Yes Mcfly I am serious, but I never mentioned after market race suspension, And Yes I am suggesting that adding QC and extractors will make it cheaper for stocks to run better for less money. Oh you had to ask again? Really...Yes really! Do all you folks go out a buy brand new? I cant keep up with that so I buy 2nd hand....

Ever have a mate who popped a set of extractors on his road car or did you do it yourself maybe, ...gets you a nice lift out of what you already have and an absolute truck load less expensive than doing a decent breathing top end, ....Further...Have you seen the price for a decent diff head these days?...the head alone costs more than half this old QC... how many do you need if you travel? I know other fellas say just change tyre sizes or inflate or deflate your rear tyres but man thats just so "road side repair" in this day and age...good for a changing surface over gthe evening I would think but not if your moving from track to track.. I dont believe thats a suitable fix for the top teams is it?...would the top race camps change the size of tyres only before an event or change the diff head for best ratio if theyre not racing at home? I dont know but I wouldnt have a big money motor and not have a couple or three diff heads...would you?

I believe it was correct to have QC and extractors in the original set of rules...(being allowed them doesnt mean you have to have them)...just because the governing body possibly let people run over the top of them and stretch the rules in other areas doesn't mean the original idea was wrong. Z

You missed the point zitadel. QC diffs and extractors were allowed in the original A & B grade stocks, NOT Standard Stocks. Reason, to keep cost down. You mentioned that if you bolt on a set of extractors to your road car it "gets you a nice lift" - imagine how nice that lift is when you have spent big dollars getting the most out of your internals. A lot more than on your standard motor, meaning you are no longer competitive. The whole reason for standard manifolds and restrictor plates was to minimise the effect of spending big money on engine internals.
My opinion is that if we were to go back to the original rules regarding brakes and suspension components then we would still have a far more level playing field.
The first part of your last paragraph is totally inaccurate - QC diffs & extractors were never in the rules for standard stocks. However the last part about the governing body allowing certain people to run over them and stretch the rules in other areas is correct.

[nogrip-31gm]

the problem is that people ARE spending big bux on their STANDARD stock motors, leaving the budget racers in the weeds,and also stretching the rules to get the most out the intakes now...

id like to see stockcar motors exactly that..STOCK..
and i think bringing in injection will allow this to be easier.. direct bolt in from a road car, no modified manifolds etc

[ariana]

The problem would be an easy fix put a Max HP a Max torque and a Max rev limit then there would be no grey areas then a q/c would be good but that only my opinion but agree as someone wanting to get into this class cars are just so expensive if you want to be slightly competative

[Deleted]

Mcfly...those ahead will always have big bucks to spend..we cant catch em now..so why not forget them and let the rest of the stocks become more driveable and more raceable? why punish the whole lot just because some guys are desperate to win in the B grade..this is going round in circles and im over it. have a goos week evey one.

[Pazza]

If n no wot u are doing it aint all about the engine which people think..Come to Stratty one night Andrew 124s has a runner engine & is one of Stratfords Fastest car nite in nite out..Good driver & setup combo is crushel these days..Personally they should have neva let in these flash shocks etc..Sespension is 50% of traction if done rite..

[ariana]

Mar 24, 2014 6:56:48 GMT 12 Pazza said:

If n no wot u are doing it aint all about the engine which people think..Come to Stratty one night Andrew 124s has a runner engine & is one of Stratfords Fastest car nite in nite out..Good driver & setup combo is crushel these days..Personally they should have neva let in these flash shocks etc..Sespension is 50% of traction if done rite..

Agree completely but if engines where more even then it would bring costs down and make it so setting up a car and driving ability that gets u to pointy end not how much dollars you have

[sabbath]

Mar 24, 2014 7:33:08 GMT 12 ariana said:

Mar 24, 2014 6:56:48 GMT 12 Pazza said:

If n no wot u are doing it aint all about the engine which people think..Come to Stratty one night Andrew 124s has a runner engine & is one of Stratfords Fastest car nite in nite out..Good driver & setup combo is crushel these days..Personally they should have neva let in these flash shocks etc..Sespension is 50% of traction if done rite..

Agree completely but if engines where more even then it would bring costs down and make it so setting up a car and driving ability that gets u to pointy end not how much dollars you have

Yep totally agree with you both ariana & pazza its not all about having loads of hp its about getting that hp to the surface & getting specially when ya running a tyre say 225 wide there is not much surface area to get traction with so heaps hp & not set up ryt its just going to wheel spin & rev its guts out, so thats why mods/sprinters etc are pulling wheel stands cause look how wide there treads area. I just say there has to be somehow more restrictions put into play so you can only go so far say like snz approches certain engine builders & thats where you have to get ya engine built & sealed so all parts are the same so to keep cost to a limit then if you want to spend the big bucks on a engine you can go to who ever & step up a class to supers  

[Deleted]

Mar 24, 2014 19:29:43 GMT 12 @mike44 said:

Note
Yes people can run smaller tyres to pull revs but that costs a reduction in traction.

So does changing the ratio - if not to the same degree.

Mar 24, 2014 19:29:43 GMT 12 @mike44 said:

It's not the cost of the diff as such. Go to quick changes and then people with money will build motors to pull mega revs.

Before saloons had quick changes saloons were pulling 6500 rpm with 400-450 bhp. Now you can pull 8500 and produce 550-580 bhp. (I've seen curve from one pulling just over 600)

Now it would have been good to fix a max ratio, but what should be obvious is process as people keep pushing the limits and eventually get their way. Once you allow a QC with a set ratio it isn't that hard for people to push for dropping the ratio limit.

there are a fair amount of stockcars with engines that rev out way beyond stock... thats a ground camshafts etc - a guy once told me his cam alone cost over a grand and let the engine rev out to 9000rpm.

sounds like the main issue is that big dollar engines and big dollar suspension and big dollar diffs are limited by traction - so maybe the way to go is to set a specific size of tyre? hoosier dont exactly come in many sizes so superstocks have to change ratios rather than tyre sizes...

maybe setting a specific tyre size for the rear of the car would be better than allowing the QC? maybe it would be better to set the min and max limit on tyre size instead of worrying about the engine and suspension for now?

[beachboy]

Lets have a vote.
macgor.proboards.com/thread/31226/qc-diffs-stockcars

[nrp165]

what about the open tube/closed tube situation.......and steel axle vs aluminium axle?
there's a few cheap s/h quickchanges around,sure..........there's also a LOT of stockcars...........so the cheap ones won't last long.
A bit off topic........if everything else stayed the same-and extractors were allowed-it would increase the class appeal to new spectators

[tony68]

leave the class how it is big fields at most tracks and plenty of action There are still plenty of diffs available out there so why allow quik change diffs Leave those bits for super stocks and let stockcars remain stockcars

[mrnizmo86]

why dont more ppl use mazda or nissan diffs?
one other thing since when were solid centre clutches legal also? or multi puk clutches for that matter.