Championship Allocations (Read 6,403 times)

[brettgrace]

Jul 31, 2014 21:14:17 GMT 12 BarryB said:

Brett; a NZ Stockcar title typically attracts around 175-odd cars on average, 30 cars into the finals over three heats.

Barry B

Cool thanks Barry.

mcfly working with the numbers BarryB has given, at each meeting I would propose 10 car groups, 2 rounds of 9 heats with 2 groups per heat with groups on rotation thru the three meetings so everyone races everyone else once, 200 points for a heat win with a ten point differential between positions so that's 10 points for last place, 2 points extra per spin, 5 points extra to immobilise and 10 points extra for a roll over. Grids for the groups set by pill draw for first heat then reversed for second. 8 laps per heat otherwise they drag on forever. Top 30 in points after two heats into the final with 600 points for a win with a 20 point differential per place. I hope that makes as much sense here as it does in my head

[farma]

Aug 1, 2014 0:48:23 GMT 12 brettgrace said:

Jul 31, 2014 21:14:17 GMT 12 BarryB said:

Brett; a NZ Stockcar title typically attracts around 175-odd cars on average, 30 cars into the finals over three heats.

Barry B

Cool thanks Barry.

mcfly working with the numbers BarryB has given, at each meeting I would propose 10 car groups, 2 rounds of 9 heats with 2 groups per heat with groups on rotation thru the three meetings so everyone races everyone else once, 200 points for a heat win with a ten point differential between positions so that's 10 points for last place, 2 points extra per spin, 5 points extra to immobilise and 10 points extra for a roll over. Grids for the groups set by pill draw for first heat then reversed for second. 8 laps per heat otherwise they drag on forever. Top 30 in points after two heats into the final with 600 points for a win with a 20 point differential per place. I hope that makes as much sense here as it does in my head

And the final to start two hours after the last heat once all the points are sorted out? Sounds like a very long night, let alone three nights of it.

There is a reason that the All Blacks don't play in Palmerston North, the stadium isn't big enough, so you can't get enough people through the gate and you lose money compared to alternative venues. I like Barry's idea that more consideration is given to the financial viability of hosting each Championship at a track that is suitable (read big enough) for hosting it. The on-going financial benefits to the sport of generating more admission income from Championships, which SNZ needs to take a cut (or larger cut of if this already happens), could be significant provided that income is ring fenced for the development of the sport in the regions that do not host as many Championships because their club is smaller and they are not fortunate enough to have the same level of facilities available elsewhere.

[The Observer]

Jul 31, 2014 20:25:47 GMT 12 sonjahickey said:

Observer just a little correction, Rotorua did not get the NZ Stockcar Champs out of Rotation and is not the only track to have had it twice. Palmerston North has also had it twice and Huntly will do next year which is in perfect Rotation for the North Island. Stockcars were not contracted in the South Island until 2004 when Blenheim had 7. Blenheim hosted the NZ Stockcars in 2010 and Rotorua in 2011, surely you didn't think that it should have gone back to the South Island when they only had 24% of the cars at 137. They have had the champs every second year since then and even with all this exposure to NZ Titles the numbers have dropped to 129.

Only 9 Cars travelled from the South Island for the NZ Stockcar Champs in Rotorua and I know very few were in Palmerston North, from memory only 1 from Nelson who get to host the title this year, yet hundreds travel South every time it's held over the ditch.

The Streetstocks who last season have 72 Competitors in the North Island and 98 in the South Island will have to have traveled South three out of the last four years.

I think it is time to move forward as we voted 100% to do at Conference and move to a full rotational system so everybody gets a fair deal and we can plan for upcoming Championships.

Sonja Hickey

Hi Sonja - thanks for the reply - and the correction!

I'm working hard to try and understand your post.

At the conclusion you suggest a rotational system so "everybody" gets a fair deal (I assume you are referring to tracks/promotions here), yet you are disappointed that the titles went to tracks in the south island. I admit I am struggling to follow this logic.

I have a couple of questions which I hope will help me understand your point of veiw.

When do you decide it is fair to slot tracks that are yet to hold the title into the rotation system. Surely it is before the second time around for other tracks so everyone "gets a fair deal"? That way the rotation in future is shared around equally, rather than early tracks getting two shots of the cherry before another track has one?

Or Are you suggesting a rotational system that ignores tracks yet to host the title? In that case how do tracks get into your rotation system - for example Kihikihi have a long history of stockcars, yet somehow have been missed in this rotation. I am not sure how that fits into the "Huntly will do next year which is in perfect Rotation for the North Island" model you mention

Or are you suggesting that some tracks (in this instance those in the south island) should have to wait for a longer period of time before they are allowed to hold the title ie from the 70s through to 2001 (30 years)? And that other tracks who have waited this long are more deserving of a repeated shot at this title?

If you look at the list of tracks who have held the title its pretty clear that a rotational system is in play, for better or worse. Thanks for the correction - as you state to date there is only two tracks that have held the title twice, with Huntly in a couple of years time due to join that club. If this current rotation system continues there will be a couple of tracks who hold the title twice before others get another shot.


Not poking the borax - simply trying to get a better feel for anothers point of veiw.

In this situation its unfortunate that the "South Island" are late on the scene in this rotation of a new title, as I believe the "South Island" is being blamed for a clear example of rotation in action.

cheers

Hadleigh

[sonjahickey]

Sorry Hadliegh I didn't mean to confuse you and to be honest your reply has me a little confused but I will attempt to clarify what I was trying to convey.

I struggle with your point that the South Island should have the New Zealand Stockcar Champs for what could possibly be 8 years consecutively, subject of course to whether all the tracks that contract Stockcars meet the criteria. I doubt that would be good for the class or the spectators and perhaps a fairer system would be based on the number of contracted cars. ie the South Island has less than a quarter of all the Stockcars in the Country so a 3:1 ratio or even 2:1 would be more logical and fairer on fans and competitors.

Kihikihi unfortunately had issues with the NZ Superstocks when they hosted it and I guess the tracks voting felt that they may not be able handle what is a very big Championship in the North Island. I stand to be corrected but I don't think they met the criteria this year but they do have NZ Streetstocks for 2015/16, (subject to ratification) and hopefully they can make a good job of that championship and restore the members faith in them and in the future can host the NZ Stockcars.

Sonja Hickey

[BarryB]

That's one of the most difficult things with rotation Observer; where to slot any newcomers in. With some classes the cycle may only be a few years (like Cromwell when they started running Sprintcars), but with Stockcars it's looking like about a 16 year cycle at the moment. It's arguably not fair to put a new track at the top of the list as soon as they become eligible just because they've not had it before - whilst others that have supported the growth of the class for years may still be 12-15 years away from their second turn - but it's arguably unfair to place them at the bottom of the heap just because they're new either. My current and personal view is to look at the big picture, based on something like your own North/Central/South scenario and slot them into a place on the ladder that that compliments the overall scheme of things. So if Greymouth, for example, were to slot into the queue, it wouldn't be right next to another "South" track, but after one from each the "North" or "Central" regions.

Oh, and if a track from one area happens to become ineligible and the rotation was looking good, any new track from that region would slot into their position on the ladder.

Barry B

[panicstations]

It seems to me that there are big differences and expectations on championship allocations among the realm of snz, clubs and members.

The recent issue at conference has only highlighted the problems with the status of the current system and it was only a matter of time before the north island tracks actually put their heads together and sorted a way to overcome the allegiances of the south tracks.

There must be numerous solutions but wouldn't it be worth while to even the number of votes coming from both islands and have a system like the previous snz board called in if and when a deciding vote was required?
Eg. If there are 12 north and 11 south tracks, north gets 4.17 points per vote and south gets 4.55 points per vote (all tracks add up to 100 points)

Just a thought:)

[BarryB]

Aug 3, 2014 21:44:13 GMT 12 panicstations said:

It seems to me that there are big differences and expectations on championship allocations among the realm of snz, clubs and members.

The recent issue at conference has only highlighted the problems with the status of the current system and it was only a matter of time before the north island tracks actually put their heads together and sorted a way to overcome the allegiances of the south tracks.

There must be numerous solutions but wouldn't it be worth while to even the number of votes coming from both islands and have a system like the previous snz board called in if and when a deciding vote was required?
Eg. If there are 12 north and 11 south tracks, north gets 4.17 points per vote and south gets 4.55 points per vote (all tracks add up to 100 points)

Just a thought:)

The North Islander's were actually extremely slow learners in that case panicstations, it has to be said.

Onto your point re a vote being worth "X" amount of points (there are 13 NI tracks and 11 SI tracks just as a matter of interest, but I get your suggestion), I think all that would do, once everybody gets rarked up like they are right now, is make every vote come out at 50 points to 50 points, and the Directors would be deciding every vote. I think we want to do away with the NI versus SI scenario, and develop something that works for the fans, competitors and tracks of New Zealand.

Barry B

[mcfly]

Aug 4, 2014 14:50:16 GMT 12 BarryB said:

Aug 3, 2014 21:44:13 GMT 12 panicstations said:

It seems to me that there are big differences and expectations on championship allocations among the realm of snz, clubs and members.

The recent issue at conference has only highlighted the problems with the status of the current system and it was only a matter of time before the north island tracks actually put their heads together and sorted a way to overcome the allegiances of the south tracks.

There must be numerous solutions but wouldn't it be worth while to even the number of votes coming from both islands and have a system like the previous snz board called in if and when a deciding vote was required?
Eg. If there are 12 north and 11 south tracks, north gets 4.17 points per vote and south gets 4.55 points per vote (all tracks add up to 100 points)

Just a thought:)

The North Islander's were actually extremely slow learners in that case panicstations, it has to be said.

Onto your point re a vote being worth "X" amount of points (there are 13 NI tracks and 11 SI tracks just as a matter of interest, but I get your suggestion), I think all that would do, once everybody gets rarked up like they are right now, is make every vote come out at 50 points to 50 points, and the Directors would be deciding every vote. I think we want to do away with the NI versus SI scenario, and develop something that works for the fans, competitors and tracks of New Zealand.

Barry B

I agree Barry, and the easiest way to do that is....
Always have the champs at either Meeanee (my local), Palmy (close to my local) or Rotenrua (nice to get away sometimes!)!!!!
There you go, problem solved

[farma]

Aug 4, 2014 14:50:16 GMT 12 BarryB said:

Aug 3, 2014 21:44:13 GMT 12 panicstations said:

It seems to me that there are big differences and expectations on championship allocations among the realm of snz, clubs and members.

The recent issue at conference has only highlighted the problems with the status of the current system and it was only a matter of time before the north island tracks actually put their heads together and sorted a way to overcome the allegiances of the south tracks.

There must be numerous solutions but wouldn't it be worth while to even the number of votes coming from both islands and have a system like the previous snz board called in if and when a deciding vote was required?
Eg. If there are 12 north and 11 south tracks, north gets 4.17 points per vote and south gets 4.55 points per vote (all tracks add up to 100 points)

Just a thought:)

The North Islander's were actually extremely slow learners in that case panicstations, it has to be said.

Onto your point re a vote being worth "X" amount of points (there are 13 NI tracks and 11 SI tracks just as a matter of interest, but I get your suggestion), I think all that would do, once everybody gets rarked up like they are right now, is make every vote come out at 50 points to 50 points, and the Directors would be deciding every vote. I think we want to do away with the NI versus SI scenario, and develop something that works for the fans, competitors and tracks of New Zealand.

Barry B

Surely the only way that the three stakeholders will receive the consideration that is necessary to make it work is by the Board putting on their governance hat and coming up with an allocation policy that isn't controlled by self interested parties. That policy then would have to be implemented and followed by the management of SNZ with the allocations for each season being ratified by the Board as adhering to the policy.

It seems so simple that there is probably no way that it would work!

[Deleted]

EXCECPT..... the board is made up of who?
this is not a reflection of the ethics or otherwise of the board who I think largly do a good job but when you have a board made up of current/former promoters & racers it is almost hard not to be self serving or at least not give that perception.

[farma]

Aug 5, 2014 17:00:02 GMT 12 Ramjam said:

EXCECPT..... the board is made up of who?
this is not a reflection of the ethics or otherwise of the board who I think largly do a good job but when you have a board made up of current/former promoters & racers it is almost hard not to be self serving or at least not give that perception.

Thanks Ramjam , I hoped someone would make that point. Isn't the issue then the structure of the Board? How many New Zealand National Sporting Organisations with a membership the size of SNZ don't have a portion Independent Directors on their Board? Based on the research I have completed in recent months, very few. Based on my limited knowledge of the workings of SNZ, and what I read on this forum, I think the sport could benefit from the input of some independent directors that have no affiliation to a track, club or particular class - perhaps a discussion for another topic, but a worthy discussion nonetheless.

[ATK]

Hey guys first time poster so please forgive my lack of knowledge on how speedway is run through SNZ. Bear with me this may take some time to read.

Just an idea, for the allocation of titles to be effectively rotational i believe that multiple tracks should be used for one national title.

The national title can be split into three events. With one track holding the final and deciding night. Early in the speedway season a track in the north island and a track in the south island holds a qualifier night.

Each qualifying night the top 13 after three or four races go through to the final night to be held two or three months later at the third track. The qualifying nights could provide the top thirteen drivers with cash to go towards travel to the final night.

The final night will consist of a thirty strong field of the current 1,2 and 3nz, the thirteen qualifiers, and the track holding the finals night gets a home track nominated driver. The nominated driver could be the finals night tracks current points winner overall based on the previous season.

The three tracks used each season could be rotated much the same way they are rotated now but the final night is allocated alternately between the north and south islands tracks. I havent got it all figured out but its an idea different to the others i have seen or heard.

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2014 21:09:38 GMT 12 ATK said:

Hey guys first time poster so please forgive my lack of knowledge on how speedway is run through SNZ. Bear with me this may take some time to read.

Just an idea, for the allocation of titles to be effectively rotational i believe that multiple tracks should be used for one national title.

The national title can be split into three events. With one track holding the final and deciding night. Early in the speedway season a track in the north island and a track in the south island holds a qualifier night.

Each qualifying night the top 13 after three or four races go through to the final night to be held two or three months later at the third track. The qualifying nights could provide the top thirteen drivers with cash to go towards travel to the final night.

The final night will consist of a thirty strong field of the current 1,2 and 3nz, the thirteen qualifiers, and the track holding the finals night gets a home track nominated driver. The nominated driver could be the finals night tracks current points winner overall based on the previous season.

The three tracks used each season could be rotated much the same way they are rotated now but the final night is allocated alternately between the north and south islands tracks. I havent got it all figured out but its an idea different to the others i have seen or heard.

Similer ideas have been brought up but a major prob with this is the disparity in some clases between the islands. For example, and no disrespect to anyone here, Stockcars are a lot stronger in the (lower) north island than the South. As is now it would be no suprise to see 25 out of 30 qualifiers in a NZ Stockcar champs final to be from the North Island. Streetstocks seem a lot stronger in the South than the north. Midgets & Sprintcar powerbase is the north and so on. The NZ Champ finals should be the best poss field not the top points scorer from Westport ..... Again No disrespect as I'm sure whoever is westport's top points scorer in Stockcars is a good guy and good at what he does, but would prob struggle to score a single point all night on any given club night at Welly, Palmy, HB, Stratty or Rotorua (tho he might do alright at Huntly lol). Super Saloons is the only class off the top of my head that would produce a reasonable finals field.
We (read I) don't want to see watered down NZ champs where guys who should be in the finals are sitting at home '000's of KM's away

EDIT: Huntly fans I was just kidding

[Deleted]

I dunno Ramjam - to me tallying points over a series seems like the best way to find out who the best drivers really are over a season.

Bk pro dirt series show who has the talent to get to the top over a period of time and who has the ability to stay there start to finish - maybe our national champions should be found the same way? Its not a hard strecth for the open wheels like sprintcars or midgets - even saloons and modifieds could do it, stock cars would have to be two day meetings at each track, same with superstocks.. but look at the show that it puts on - not to mention that the standard of cars and driver ability in the supersaloons skyrocketed when the bk series started - and its maintained a steady pace of improvement ever since.

[BarryB]

Four things stop the season-long New Zealand title being a goer IMHO;

1; Competitor money (not enough of it for more than but a few - how much your NZ title anyone?)
2; Fan money (not enough of it to cover the 1456 NZ championship "rounds" if you follow more than one class)
3; The rules don't allow it (and they aren't likely to change any- time soon, so it's pie in the sky)
4; It'd be boring as @#$% more times than not I suspect (not what speedway should be)

All IMHO of course. At the present we find out the champion driver, on the night, for that season, NOT the champion driver OVER a season. I don't want titles decided with 2 or 3 rounds to spare. I want meeting where the title is on the line until the final corner of the final lap of the final race, NOT a driver just having to turn up to win. I love the BK Pro Dirt Series, but this year the same dude won the NZ "one-night" deal AND the BK Series, and the NZ title was more exciting cos come the final round of the BK Osborne had worked out what he had to do to win and consequently drove like a nana all night and went backwards in most races just to ensure he finished. Mark Osborne passing cars is as exciting as it gets. Watching him pull over and let others by was not what I want to watch in my NZ title events.

Barry B

[knownotmuch]

Excellent example of why a series is not a popular idea with most Speedway purists Barry. We attend as many Championship meeting as time allows and we also follow the BK series attending a number of rounds every year. I personally would always want the NZs decided on the night. We have travelled to watch NZs in nine different classes, but if they were decided on a series rather than over a weekend, it would probably be a matter of picking one class only.

[Deleted]

if you are going to take it to the nth degree you would scrap all regional titles in every class and just make each tracks season points winner that tracks regional champ. After all the winner of the Nelson Streetstock champs or Wellington Stockcar champs might not be the best racer of the season. (insert rolling eyes here)

[teamkaos]

Aug 9, 2014 12:43:21 GMT 12 BarryB said:

Four things stop the season-long New Zealand title being a goer IMHO;

1; Competitor money (not enough of it for more than but a few - how much your NZ title anyone?)
2; Fan money (not enough of it to cover the 1456 NZ championship "rounds" if you follow more than one class)
3; The rules don't allow it (and they aren't likely to change any- time soon, so it's pie in the sky)
4; It'd be boring as @#$% more times than not I suspect (not what speedway should be)

All IMHO of course. At the present we find out the champion driver, on the night, for that season, NOT the champion driver OVER a season. I don't want titles decided with 2 or 3 rounds to spare. I want meeting where the title is on the line until the final corner of the final lap of the final race, NOT a driver just having to turn up to win. I love the BK Pro Dirt Series, but this year the same dude won the NZ "one-night" deal AND the BK Series, and the NZ title was more exciting cos come the final round of the BK Osborne had worked out what he had to do to win and consequently drove like a nana all night and went backwards in most races just to ensure he finished. Mark Osborne passing cars is as exciting as it gets. Watching him pull over and let others by was not what I want to watch in my NZ title events.

Barry B

Interesting thoughts Barry, I also like the 1 or 2 night deal, but it dosnt always turn out all peachy, And sometimes you are left thinking that in that case maybe a series, or even spread over a couple of rounds would of had a better outcome.
Just to counter.
1; Competitor money, to be fair, most if not all genuine Championship contenders in all classes wouldnt have to much of an issue. I guess it would come down to how many rounds it was over and the prize money up for grabs.
2; Fan Money, going to all events is pretty unrealistic. And im sure there is alot of fans around the country that dont travel anywhere to go to championships, but would go if there was a round at their local. This also opens up the Media option, with people who cant make rounds or dont travel having the option of seeing the other events on tv / dvd / live streaming etc.
3; There is a tonne of old fashioned rules, mainly because the people who decided on rule changes usually think about how much its gonna cost them personaly if the rule gets changed.
4; Boring? Not sure about that. Your example of Osbourne with the BK Series, I dont know how many rounds the bK series was but I am assuming you are only talking about the very last round, So all of the other rounds would of been good. I know the 2 rounds that I saw was some of the Best Super Saloon racing ive seen for years. And it wouldnt always come down to a scenario like that for the last round, it could just as easily be 3 drivers seperated by 2 points and then what sort of meeting would you have then? Probably the best one of the series!
As I said I like the 1 or 2 night deals, but i wouldnt mind to see how a series would go either.
The main issues I have with the 1 or 2 night deal is that sometimes luck, good / bad has too much of an affect on the result.
It's not always the top 3 drivers of the season that ends up carrying the 1nz, 2nz and 3nz for the season.

[BarryB]

Personally, I wouldn't be totally against wiping all of the GP's and the Island titles TK, and having a 1-weekend NZ title for each class plus a Series for at least the glamour classes. Best of both worlds..........

And yes, re the BK Series I was only talking about the last round last season.

Barry B