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Post by screaminV8 on Mar 1, 2015 18:45:00 GMT 12
Ok, first up, I am NOT criticising the safety crew, but this is a serious question as something that happened on Saturday looked a bit disturbing.
For those that didn't see it, here is the incident:
In the first consolation race, 388a Leigh Cossey ended going hard into the wall in turn 3 and was knocked out.
The car rolled from the wall to the pole line. Luckily it had come out of gear (or something) because the engine was screaming.
All the safety crew and the SNZ Man were looking the other way.
Eventually the Reds came on, and one of the safety crew walked slowly to the car.
The crowd was going crazy because it had been obvious right from the time of impact that Leigh was KO and the engine didn't have long left at the revs it was pulling.
The engine blew itself to bits and a huge fireball erupted as the safety crew were half way to the car.
So they then had to go in through the flames to shut it off. Well done to the crew for doing that.
So, I understand the whole principle around "making the scene safe" and " not endangering yourself", but a few questions around safety crew training.
- is there a standard training used by all SNZ tracks?
- if so, what's the deal on who has eyes where? ie the crew were very lucky that car had come out of gear, as it was pointing straight at them, and they were all looking the other way.
- what's the idea around how quick the crew should get to a car ie in a case like that where the engine is screaming I would have thought to get there as quick as, before anything else happens ie fire like last night, or maybe even ends up back in gear if driver moves etc.
The safety crews on the whole do a fantastic job, but just the apparent lack of urgency was what seemed strange in this instance. It's Not about the destroyed engine (although that's a shame) but the other risks a screaming engine poses, and also if a driver is KO surely every second is important to check airways and breathing?
Western Springs crew are often at a tumbling car by the time it comes to rest, so not sure if they work to different principles with how they approach things.
I hope,Leigh is ok today.
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Post by boner87 on Mar 1, 2015 19:03:47 GMT 12
This happens in all motorsport. The safety have to decide when it is safe to go and approach the car. While the green is on, when the Reds come on or when the other cars are stopped. A lot of circuit rack g the marshalls can't move unless told apart from fire incidents. It may have been hard for the marshalls to hear the car?(ear plugs). Can also be hard to tell if someone is KO when the car is front on or with Hans (or similar device) on.
I give my up to these volunteers and the pic I've seen with the Marshall leaning in the car with a massive fireball well he must have some big balls
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Post by Skorp on Mar 1, 2015 19:59:24 GMT 12
It is my understanding (and I could be totally wrong here) that fire crews are trained to a similar standard, with many having been trained by the New Zealand fire Service, or are members of the fire service. I know here in Palmy the fire crews are trained fire fighters from Ashurst, are back in the 90's were volunteer fire fighters from Palmy (my Dad used to be the one organizing them, until the early 2000's)
If there are no flames, there is no point in the fire screws rushing to the cars. There is no point in having the fire screws rush to a crippled car, only to get caught up in a fire ball or something and getting injured themselves. That's also why you won't see paramedics rushing to be the first one to an injured driver, they are trained not to as they are useless to anyone else if they get hurt because they rushed over and tripped or were hit by debris or something.
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Post by beachboy on Mar 1, 2015 20:17:56 GMT 12
western springs don't have contact classes so almost every incident the marshals know the yellows will come on straight away so figure it's going to be safe to start heading to the car, a bit different in contact classes where the greens can stay on for a lap or so until the car is deemed to be in an unsafe position . Marshals have no real way of telling if someone is KO'd or simply leaning forward trying to restart the car and once the reds are flicked on that cars has to be removed of from the race regardless.
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Post by harryhardout on Mar 2, 2015 13:04:07 GMT 12
In response to screamin v8 from a Rotorua track marshall I would like to reply to your issues firstly you would have noticed the three people in yellow and black overalls all fire crew from the rotorua fire service there are three at each end and three in the middle the night in question there were two senior fire fighters and a cadet before the meeting we discuss who will do what in an event as you saw one person approached empty handed the other two arrived after with extinguishers. So we had qualified personnel on hand. The official at our end watches the pole line so for looking the other way?there are also three officials upstairs one dedicated to watching our end from above. And then we have an award winning photographer who has photos you could find show the action no one you thought was watching. Any other worries? I have a couple of how did that happens too. The car got from the outside to the inside up and over the pole line and stopped then the revs increased the car then sat there without rolling back on to the track why?seems to indicate that he took it out of gear and then passed out the car was pointing directly at me and I can swear that he moved his head twice I will ask fire guys if they saw the same to clear that up in relation to why they didn't jump in straight away thanks Harry
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Post by mcfly on Mar 2, 2015 16:25:08 GMT 12
In response to screamin v8 from a Rotorua track marshall I would like to reply to your issues firstly you would have noticed the three people in yellow and black overalls all fire crew from the rotorua fire service there are three at each end and three in the middle the night in question there were two senior fire fighters and a cadet before the meeting we discuss who will do what in an event as you saw one person approached empty handed the other two arrived after with extinguishers. So we had qualified personnel on hand. The official at our end watches the pole line so for looking the other way?there are also three officials upstairs one dedicated to watching our end from above. And then we have an award winning photographer who has photos you could find show the action no one you thought was watching. Any other worries? I have a couple of how did that happens too. The car got from the outside to the inside up and over the pole line and stopped then the revs increased the car then sat there without rolling back on to the track why?seems to indicate that he took it out of gear and then passed out the car was pointing directly at me and I can swear that he moved his head twice I will ask fire guys if they saw the same to clear that up in relation to why they didn't jump in straight away thanks Harry That incident happened right in front of where we were sitting. The car was screaming its head off well before it rolled to the pole line. I might be mistaken but it certainly looked to me like most, if not all people at that end of the infield were looking at the incident and rescue car at other end. If not they took what seemed like a very long time with us spectators screaming at them to react! Another question - in the last consolation race, why was the HB car left un-supported to roll in to its lid when the other car involved had been told he was to go to the infield? Body repairs, fluid loss, potential fire from fuel leaking from an up-turned carb - all pretty unnecessary it would seem. |
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Post by mike004 on Mar 2, 2015 18:12:38 GMT 12
In response to screamin v8 from a Rotorua track marshall I would like to reply to your issues firstly you would have noticed the three people in yellow and black overalls all fire crew from the rotorua fire service there are three at each end and three in the middle the night in question there were two senior fire fighters and a cadet before the meeting we discuss who will do what in an event as you saw one person approached empty handed the other two arrived after with extinguishers. So we had qualified personnel on hand. The official at our end watches the pole line so for looking the other way?there are also three officials upstairs one dedicated to watching our end from above. And then we have an award winning photographer who has photos you could find show the action no one you thought was watching. Any other worries? I have a couple of how did that happens too. The car got from the outside to the inside up and over the pole line and stopped then the revs increased the car then sat there without rolling back on to the track why?seems to indicate that he took it out of gear and then passed out the car was pointing directly at me and I can swear that he moved his head twice I will ask fire guys if they saw the same to clear that up in relation to why they didn't jump in straight away thanks Harry Hey Harry, just to clarify, the Fire crew are a mixture of operational support staff from Rotorua and Fire fighters from Ngongotaha. I was a little concerned seeing the photo of where the Fire crew was standing. Perhaps the other side of the car might have been a better side to stand on to check the driver lol These guys need to remember they are only wearing fire resistant overalls. They do burn when impinged by flame. That's why Fire fighters wear the garments they do. Triple layers, PBI gold, with gortex, and with insulation. |
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Post by harryhardout on Mar 2, 2015 18:26:41 GMT 12
The hb car left unsupported was a bit bizzare to me aswell speculating he may have been left there giving him a chance to back off the wall? Highly unlikely I know but we are not allowed to touch them
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 19:49:13 GMT 12
In response to screamin v8 from a Rotorua track marshall I would like to reply to your issues firstly you would have noticed the three people in yellow and black overalls all fire crew from the rotorua fire service there are three at each end and three in the middle the night in question there were two senior fire fighters and a cadet before the meeting we discuss who will do what in an event as you saw one person approached empty handed the other two arrived after with extinguishers. So we had qualified personnel on hand. The official at our end watches the pole line so for looking the other way?there are also three officials upstairs one dedicated to watching our end from above. And then we have an award winning photographer who has photos you could find show the action no one you thought was watching. Any other worries? I have a couple of how did that happens too. The car got from the outside to the inside up and over the pole line and stopped then the revs increased the car then sat there without rolling back on to the track why?seems to indicate that he took it out of gear and then passed out the car was pointing directly at me and I can swear that he moved his head twice I will ask fire guys if they saw the same to clear that up in relation to why they didn't jump in straight away thanks Harry Hey Harry, just to clarify, the Fire crew are a mixture of operational support staff from Rotorua and Fire fighters from Ngongotaha. I was a little concerned seeing the photo of where the Fire crew was standing. Perhaps the other side of the car might have been a better side to stand on to check the driver lol These guys need to remember they are only wearing fire resistant overalls. They do burn when impinged by flame. That's why Fire fighters wear the garments they do. Triple layers, PBI gold, with gortex, and with insulation. mike the photo only shows a snapshot, there was no time to go to other side, he wasn't checking driver but reaching in for kill switch |
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Post by screaminV8 on Mar 2, 2015 19:53:57 GMT 12
In response to screamin v8 from a Rotorua track marshall I would like to reply to your issues firstly you would have noticed the three people in yellow and black overalls all fire crew from the rotorua fire service there are three at each end and three in the middle the night in question there were two senior fire fighters and a cadet before the meeting we discuss who will do what in an event as you saw one person approached empty handed the other two arrived after with extinguishers. So we had qualified personnel on hand. The official at our end watches the pole line so for looking the other way?there are also three officials upstairs one dedicated to watching our end from above. And then we have an award winning photographer who has photos you could find show the action no one you thought was watching. Any other worries? I have a couple of how did that happens too. The car got from the outside to the inside up and over the pole line and stopped then the revs increased the car then sat there without rolling back on to the track why?seems to indicate that he took it out of gear and then passed out the car was pointing directly at me and I can swear that he moved his head twice I will ask fire guys if they saw the same to clear that up in relation to why they didn't jump in straight away thanks Harry Hi Harry. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I was not having a pop at the fire crews as they dealt with the fire extremely well, especially after the first man in had to go towards the flames to shut down the car. What I was questioning, and as McFly stated above, it did seem to take a long time for any movement towards the car. I know how many spotters there are, but were they distracted by another incident?? A few seconds quicker to shut the thing off, and there wouldn't have been the ensuing fire once the motor detonated. So my original question was around the protocols and training as to how quickly a car/driver in trouble should be approached, and who should have eyes on what at all times. And as I said I was also concerned about you guys on the infield - everyone appeared to have their back to a car with a KO driver, with engine screaming - what if his left foot had been on the clutch as he braced for the impact, and then subsequently slipped off? There was a LOT of people on the terraces going nuts waiting for someone to turn around and see the problem. Especially at the other end there was a few times when people had to scatter when cars came flying infield, and having someone on the infield get hit would be the worse thing that could happen, hence the question of who should be watching where. Keep safe and keep up the good work. |
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Post by steiny118 on Mar 2, 2015 20:01:13 GMT 12
harryhardout . you guys do a wicked job and us as drivers appreciate what you do . its easy to judge from the side line with the ol gold fish bowl vision but in real time i bet it wasn't as long as everyone thinks. i know first hand from experience , i was told my car was revving for ages when i got ko last season but after watching a video it was like 15 seconds once i drifted to the infeild. once again you guys are well appreciated keep it up .... steiny
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danam
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Post by danam on Mar 2, 2015 20:03:19 GMT 12
Re HB car up against wall, there was little bit of a miss unstanding on what the car holding HB car against wall was allow do to . So unfortunately never got tractor on car to hold up
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Post by sonjahickey on Mar 2, 2015 20:53:12 GMT 12
Like every camp Mother l am about to protect my own. Those boys do a fantastic job. Nobody ran out earlier because the green lights were on. Had they done so there would have been some serious words. The stoppage was for a car at the other end of the track and as such it would have come through the headsets as turn 2 taking the focus off turn 4. The photo l have just prior to the engine detonating has Leigh with his eyes wide open, obviously his visor flicked up. Just may be he did that and hence reports from the infield that they saw him moving was correct. Please lay off these brave volunteers, one who put his own life at risk to turn that car off. I doubt many people on this forum would have been that brave.
Sonja h
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Post by mike004 on Mar 3, 2015 7:02:13 GMT 12
Hey Harry, just to clarify, the Fire crew are a mixture of operational support staff from Rotorua and Fire fighters from Ngongotaha. I was a little concerned seeing the photo of where the Fire crew was standing. Perhaps the other side of the car might have been a better side to stand on to check the driver lol These guys need to remember they are only wearing fire resistant overalls. They do burn when impinged by flame. That's why Fire fighters wear the garments they do. Triple layers, PBI gold, with gortex, and with insulation. mike the photo only shows a snapshot, there was no time to go to other side, he wasn't checking driver but reaching in for kill switch Yip, fair point there Gribbs, but my concern is the level of protection for the fire crews. |
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Post by harryhardout on Mar 3, 2015 9:50:07 GMT 12
Thanks to steiny and camp mother no one loves doing what we do more than us we get the best seat in the house we do it as safe as we can though if it means waiting for cars to stop we wait sometimes we can't touch cars until the ok is given but if nessecary we will go in that's just how it is I will be there every race night hell I live an hour away and I'm a volunteer will you?
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Post by mike004 on Mar 3, 2015 14:35:28 GMT 12
Thanks to steiny and camp mother no one loves doing what we do more than us we get the best seat in the house we do it as safe as we can though if it means waiting for cars to stop we wait sometimes we can't touch cars until the ok is given but if nessecary we will go in that's just how it is I will be there every race night hell I live an hour away and I'm a volunteer will you? Hey Harry, not bagging you at all, you all do a great job. My concern is the level of protection you have. Not just Rotorua either. Overalls are good for a fire flash, not a sustained fire. I would hate to see someone get burnt trying to do there job. Been there done that! |
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Post by screaminV8 on Mar 3, 2015 20:23:01 GMT 12
Like every camp Mother l am about to protect my own. Those boys do a fantastic job. Nobody ran out earlier because the green lights were on. Had they done so there would have been some serious words. The stoppage was for a car at the other end of the track and as such it would have come through the headsets as turn 2 taking the focus off turn 4. The photo l have just prior to the engine detonating has Leigh with his eyes wide open, obviously his visor flicked up. Just may be he did that and hence reports from the infield that they saw him moving was correct. Please lay off these brave volunteers, one who put his own life at risk to turn that car off. I doubt many people on this forum would have been that brave. Sonja h Sonja - I completely agree with everything you said! I started this thread,and as stated the intention was never about having a pop at the crew. It was a genuine question around the standard training across SNZ tracks, as the way this particular situation unfolded, it appeared from the outside that a number of factors contributed to posing a potential risk to the crew, and the injured driver. I still have sickening memories of Royden Collingwood accelerating unconscious through the infield, and thank god everyone got out of the way that time. The original question was about who has eyes where when there is so much going on, and what you say re the incident being called on turn 2 would explain a lot. Once again, I think all the volunteers do a fantastic job, and we all know the meetings couldn't happen without them. |
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