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Post by sonic33 on Feb 5, 2018 21:43:53 GMT 12
Keen to hear peoples thoughts. I was full of anticipation with 14 teams. Perhaps not a bad format, but was wondering if a 12 team cap would work?
The group racing seems to work. Maybe a wrong year to discuss as there is not normally 14 teams.
No hate what so ever on either format, just looking for discussion.
Two teams were unbeaten for the weekend Palmy and BP.
One team won, and the other got 5th. Maybe an anomaly, but most unbeaten teams shud be up the front.
My point is, regardless of those that want to enter should it be capped at 12, with 4 teams seeded from last years results. Teams that were at the previous event get auto entry, any extras are on waiting a team front last year not to front.
Certainly didn't have an issue with 14 teams.
The final was brilliant and brutal. Best for quite some time.
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Post by Jeffery on Feb 5, 2018 21:58:24 GMT 12
Keen to hear peoples thoughts. I was full of anticipation with 14 teams. Perhaps not a bad format, but was wondering if a 12 team cap would work? The group racing seems to work. Maybe a wrong year to discuss as there is not normally 14 teams. No hate what so ever on either format, just looking for discussion. Two teams were unbeaten for the weekend Palmy and BP. One team won, and the other got 5th. Maybe an anomaly, but most unbeaten teams shud be up the front. My point is, regardless of those that want to enter should it be capped at 12, with 4 teams seeded from last years results. Teams that were at the previous event get auto entry, any extras are on waiting a team front last year not to front. Certainly didn't have an issue with 14 teams. The final was brilliant and brutal. Best for quite some time. Hawkeyes unbeaten also in 2013 I think and came 5th also, it happens. I think the points format for night one needs tweaking if more than 12 teams. 120-140 points for first I think is needed, give teams a greater incentive to win a race at all costs rather than points accumulation. Night one suffered somewhat I feel in terms of action because of needing all points, even to make tier 2! |
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Post by go29 on Feb 5, 2018 22:08:03 GMT 12
Agree points need to be adjusted if more than 12 teams. Personally, I don't like the idea of capping it at 12 because one year you may only get 11 teams so they call on another team who may say no thanks as you didn't want us last year. Capping also provides a barrier for new guys to try and get involved when we should be encouraging them to teams race. Just my thoughts  |
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Post by hbhornets on Feb 5, 2018 23:35:26 GMT 12
Night 1 was an issue when draw was released. As 7 teams could of been undeafed all night. The top 7 a teams from perviruses year all not racing each other. That was a issue. Good teams vs weaker teams all the way through going by last results. If there were 12 teams you could of had gaints panthers night one. Which is what they were wanting to avoid and set a format that avoided this happening. Remember before the meeting baypark bet two teams everybody had in there semis. So tosay not getting enough points. A bit harsh. Not everybody can race the Eagles. You had two of the best teams in the final. And with the group format yout never get that. Take your pick. Where do you want your action? Because the top teams can only face each other once along the way.
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Post by maninstand on Feb 6, 2018 7:11:04 GMT 12
Totally agree the points system needs changing
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Post by pfloyd on Feb 6, 2018 8:39:56 GMT 12
at the end of night one the top 5 all had 2 wins so increasing the points for first would not have made any difference. same for night 2, stratford and baypark both won but the difference was the stratford whitewash of the other placings. the points awarded are not the issue its the format. getting a couple of extra teams and having 4 groups of 4 would mean 3 races on night one - very tough on driver , machinery and crews. the ideal is 12 team 4 group format but imagine the stink if the promotion turned down applicants. would they reject say the Warriors and keep Great Britain in ? its a tough call but to be fair to everyone i dont see any other way to wait until you have confirmed entries and go from there.
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Post by BarryB on Feb 6, 2018 8:52:35 GMT 12
Totally agree the points system needs changing Everybody is picking on the points, starting with the professor before the meeting who wanted 200 points to win. Above we read suggestions of 120 and 140 points. All that would do is lift the points totals of the five teams that won both of their Night 1 races by either 200 extra points under the professors theory, or an extra 40 points or 80 points under the other points scales. They'd all lift the same amount as they won two races each, so the Busters still wouldn't of made the top 4. I think what it's shown is that you've got to win and you've got to win big all weekend to finish on top. But so much comes down to who races who in the first night under 14 teams though. 12 is certainly better, as you are more in control of your own destiny. The Busters were also hampered by completing their two races so early. Later teams new exactly what they had to do to make the top 4. And they did just that. This is a format issue, not a points allocation issue, yet once you go over 12 teams it can't be done any better than it was either due to gaps between races etc. Barry B |
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Post by maninstand on Feb 6, 2018 10:20:58 GMT 12
Totally agree the points system needs changing Everybody is picking on the points, starting with the professor before the meeting who wanted 200 points to win. Above we read suggestions of 120 and 140 points. All that would do is lift the points totals of the five teams that won both of their Night 1 races by either 200 extra points under the professors theory, or an extra 40 points or 80 points under the other points scales. They'd all lift the same amount as they won two races each, so the Busters still wouldn't of made the top 4. I think what it's shown is that you've got to win and you've got to win big all weekend to finish on top. But so much comes down to who races who in the first night under 14 teams though. 12 is certainly better, as you are more in control of your own destiny. The Busters were also hampered by completing their two races so early. Later teams new exactly what they had to do to make the top 4. And they did just that. This is a format issue, not a points allocation issue, yet once you go over 12 teams it can't be done any better than it was either due to gaps between races etc. Barry B Okay how would top 6 go through. 1 And 2 on points straight to semi. Then 3v6 and 4 v 5 winners to fave the 1 and 2 teams. Although the issue then becomes 3 teams races on finals night. |
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Post by midway on Feb 6, 2018 10:27:53 GMT 12
The whole points system is a joke ,AND VERY UNFAIR as seen this year ..
I would of thought by now a more positive system would be in place ,and then it would not matter two hoots how many teams particiapate .
The promoter needs to get his head around it ,in a constructive way ,.
Every year it becomes a talking point ,there should be none of this ,the teams are happy they know on the draw ,if theyre unlucky or not to come against there opponents up first .
I thought the Scrappers did well this year ,it would be great if they can make it to the Nationals ..
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Post by Skorp on Feb 6, 2018 10:31:31 GMT 12
The only way having a 12 team cap could work is if you make it a teams racing league. Have every team racing other teams through out the season then a week or two, or a month, before the event you take your top 11 teams from the league and they get entry into the event, with the 12th spot reserved for the Lions. That way you have a added bonuses of more teams racing earlier in the season, more chances to blood in new talent, and you'll start to see the weaker teams becoming less weak as they get more experience.
Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon. But I'll keep dreaming of the day when it happens
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Post by maninstand on Feb 6, 2018 12:06:45 GMT 12
A 12 team cap is a stupid idea. Yes it makes it simple but the more teams the better for fans. I see everyone abusing the points system but I haven’t read a decent solution yet
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Post by BarryB on Feb 6, 2018 13:00:21 GMT 12
In the days of the old 10 team format each team raced just once on the first night. There were 5 winners , 4 went through and one went home. The team that went home was generally the winner of the best race of the night, being the best because it was the most even often being 75-70 under the old points system. Palmy would race Ekatahuna and win 120-0 and cruise through to the semi-final undamaged. The team that put up the biggest fight went home. It was argued that the best two teams often failed to progress, due to the format and "the draw". No wonder people said it was rigged. And those days of pre-ELS lap scoring....but that's another story.
Realistically you need to cap at 12 teams as it generally has been in recent times, OR accept the 13 or 14 team format the way it is, and the possibility of an unbeaten team not finishing higher than fifth. It won't happen like that every year.
Altering the points will achieve nothing. You can't fit 5 unbeaten teams into 4 semi final spots. People have previously complained of a team winning a group with one win and one loss, beating a team with two wins. You won't see a team with a loss getting through under this format. Altering the points to try somehow to massage and manipulate a different result out of this year will only make a farce out of next year's event. Sometimes you just have to accept things the way they are, because it's the best overall solution. You must look at the big picture, not one set of circumstances from any one given year. If somebody can come up with a better 14 team format, that will be fair to every team every year, I'd like to hear it.
The only problem I see with a 12 team cap is that the other two teams may effectively disband, those drivers that really want to Teams race moving onto a club that is in the draw, and when eventually one of those 12 can't raise a squad in any given year, we'd only have eleven. Will Team GB attend indefinitely? The Busters? Many of these teams are driven by one or two individuals, like Otago and Kihikihi were, and will not always be there. Am I right in thinking that the Panthers and the Hawkeyes are the only two teams that have attended every year? My suggestion is that we accept a slight anomaly in the 14 team format, lest you might suddenly be back down to eleven....
16 teams is the perfect number, but to be fair will create too many races. It would need to either be a three day meeting, or you'd end up with many lop sided race towards the end of the weekend as teams ran short of mobile cars. And no, adding a sixth car isn't a logical solution either. Many teams are struggling to find five....
They do need to clarify a tied points situation however, and have it in the rules. And when the coin is tossed, everybody knowing in advance what a correct or incorrect call means.
Barry B
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Post by Stevo on Feb 6, 2018 14:53:58 GMT 12
Well explained Barry. I initially was one bagging the points system and saying they need to increase 1st place points but now that I have read your explanation it has become clear that it wouldn't make any difference. It is unfortunate that you can win all your races and still do no better than 5th but that is just how the system works and you have to accept it. And I also agree that you need to take as many teams as are willing to front and then work with the system.
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Post by maninstand on Feb 6, 2018 14:55:58 GMT 12
In the days of the old 10 team format each team raced just once on the first night. There were 5 winners , 4 went through and one went home. The team that went home was generally the winner of the best race of the night, being the best because it was the most even often being 75-70 under the old points system. Palmy would race Ekatahuna and win 120-0 and cruise through to the semi-final undamaged. The team that put up the biggest fight went home. It was argued that the best two teams often failed to progress, due to the format and "the draw". No wonder people said it was rigged. And those days of pre-ELS lap scoring....but that's another story. Realistically you need to cap at 12 teams as it generally has been in recent times, OR accept the 13 or 14 team format the way it is, and the possibility of an unbeaten team not finishing higher than fifth. It won't happen like that every year. Altering the points will achieve nothing. You can't fit 5 unbeaten teams into 4 semi final spots. People have previously complained of a team winning a group with one win and one loss, beating a team with two wins. You won't see a team with a loss getting through under this format. Altering the points to try somehow to massage and manipulate a different result out of this year will only make a farce out of next year's event. Sometimes you just have to accept things the way they are, because it's the best overall solution. You must look at the big picture, not one set of circumstances from any one given year. If somebody can come up with a better 14 team format, that will be fair to every team every year, I'd like to hear it. The only problem I see with a 12 team cap is that the other two teams may effectively disband, those drivers that really want to Teams race moving onto a club that is in the draw, and when eventually one of those 12 can't raise a squad in any given year, we'd only have eleven. Will Team GB attend indefinitely? The Busters? Many of these teams are driven by one or two individuals, like Otago and Kihikihi were, and will not always be there. Am I right in thinking that the Panthers and the Hawkeyes are the only two teams that have attended every year? My suggestion is that we accept a slight anomaly in the 14 team format, lest you might suddenly be back down to eleven.... 16 teams is the perfect number, but to be fair will create too many races. It would need to either be a three day meeting, or you'd end up with many lop sided race towards the end of the weekend as teams ran short of mobile cars. And no, adding a sixth car isn't a logical solution either. Many teams are struggling to find five.... They do need to clarify a tied points situation however, and have it in the rules. And when the coin is tossed, everybody knowing in advance what a correct or incorrect call means. Barry B Agree Barry. And the way palmy pissed around for about 25mins on Sunday they couldn’t get all of them done. I’m all for anthems but do we need them for this event especially when someone isn’t actually singing them. It was quite painful sitting through 3 of them. |
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Post by tank11 on Feb 6, 2018 16:00:09 GMT 12
All Bay Park needed to do was accumulate as many points as possible.
They did, but came up short in the end.
Most comps are like that, teams calculate what they need from previous races finished, then go out to get those points.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 16:20:31 GMT 12
Ok here's a theory that I hadn't done a lot of work on but would possibly go someway to fixing the few issues.
For 14 teams after round 1 u have 7winners & 7 losers (for want of a better term). Round 2 you have 3 of the winners meet 3 other winners and the same on the losers side of the draw. Then you will have 2 teams left over who will meet each other. (any rematch of rnd 1 they will redraw another opponent) then you will have (definitely) 3 (possibly 4)teams with 3 losses & the same with the winners. If you have 4 with 2 wins badda bing badda bah, there are your semi finals who will be 1st thru fourth in the champs. The next 4 teams are the semi finals for the plate competition.
Sounds too easy really eh
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Post by hbhornets on Feb 6, 2018 16:37:39 GMT 12
Ok here's a theory that I hadn't done a lot of work on but would possibly go someway to fixing the few issues. For 14 teams after round 1 u have 7winners & 7 losers (for want of a better term). Round 2 you have 3 of the winners meet 3 other winners and the same on the losers side of the draw. Then you will have 2 teams left over who will meet each other. (any rematch of rnd 1 they will redraw another opponent) then you will have (definitely) 3 (possibly 4)teams with 3 losses & the same with the winners. If you have 4 with 2 wins badda bing badda bah, there are your semi finals who will be 1st thru fourth in the champs. The next 4 teams are the semi finals for the plate competition. Sounds too easy really eh use What you have come up with but in a 4 Group format. That will work with 12 13 14 15 or 16 teams. |
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Post by BarryB on Feb 6, 2018 17:47:24 GMT 12
All Bay Park needed to do was accumulate as many points as possible. They did, but came up short in the end. Most comps are like that, teams calculate what they need from previous races finished, then go out to get those points. Yes, they just happened to be the first of those five undefeated sides to win their second race, so had no guideline at that stage. It's just a little disappointing that a Stratford mistake cost Baypark a place in the top 4 when Palmy were gifted 10 points, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Barry B |
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Post by mordecai on Feb 6, 2018 17:51:14 GMT 12
Ok I don't think anything is wrong with what we have right now yes baypark were unlucky but that's how it is its the same for everyone just like the hawkeyes a few years back suffered the same fate
teams know the rules and race accordingly
or you can adopt the nz stockcar format where its 1v8 2v7 3v6 4v5 but the only thing with that is they would have to do 3 races on night 2 then 4 winners move to semi finals then the final
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Post by gjd on Feb 6, 2018 17:56:24 GMT 12
All good points ha ha
Just a couple of observations
This weekend was the first time ive been back to Palmy in 10 years
With 14 teams entered I felt it provided plenty of good tactical racing on the first night
It was safe,fast and quickfire entertainment.
14 team races instead of the usual 12.
There were no big holdups throughout the evening while we watched track personal try to untangle damaged cars with inadequate machinery or replace 1955 pieces of railway iron.There wasn't even an ambulance break.This alone is good for the event.Some armchair experts may think it was tame because we didn't see the killer blows of previous years.All these big hits did was slow the whole evening down and chase a few of the competitors away that were on the edge thinking "maybe ill give it a go"
Now with the top 8 teams on points going thru it made more sense to hit to pass and not waste time totally destroying them
This was proven by the consolation field on sunday night where all 6 unplaced teams(30)cars raced.
Every car,and more importantly DRIVER were still mobile for the 2nd night
The teams had less work to do over night, and because of this any work done was probably to a better standard than previous years when time was short and damage was high
With this format it may entice more competitors to put their hand up to be part of the spectacle,knowing they will still come out the other end in good shape
Over the years people say we need change "for the betterment of the sport"....well this format has delivered just that
THANKS PALMY..WELL DONE
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