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Post by graemeh on Feb 6, 2018 18:34:42 GMT 12
It would seem that the ideal format is one that is workable regardless of the number of teams that have entered and four groups makes it easy to find your semi finalists and tier 2.
So given that two teams races is enough for any team in one night the minimum number per group should be three. Based on recent times 12 teams should not be a problem but to accept more teams it means you will end up with one or two groups with four teams. Any group with four simply means they all don't race every team in the group but are drawn to race only two of the other three. Group winner goes to Tier 1 runner-up to Tier 2 weather there are 3 or 4 cars in a group
Any tied points within a group can be sorted by a two car run-off on the first night.
This is basically what Huntly did earlier this season when they had eight teams entered for their Stockcar teams meet. Two groups of four, top two went on to the semi final, teams only raced two of the other three in their group.
There is always going to be imbalances in groups based on teams strengths, hard to eliminate "luck of the draw" in any format.
I am inclined to think that the points for 1st need to be increased to 200 so a team in a three team group who wins both races will top the group and not miss out as has happened in the past by being outscored by a team who win 1 and lose 1 but scores maximum points left available.
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Post by mgninc on Feb 6, 2018 18:35:52 GMT 12
It’s a bit of a ‘kiwi’ problem in not wanting to leave anyone out and hurt anyone’s feelings
I don’t see that you’d ever have an issue getting 12 teams as there are always 4-5 guys floating around who’d make up a select ‘barbarians’ team in any given year . If you’d stuck with 12 , a team of say Wade, Ngatai, O’brien and Marx would go ok? (Politics aside perhaps you combine A & H , C & N ? Think NRL merger)
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Post by The other guy on Feb 6, 2018 18:48:59 GMT 12
As in all sport luck plays a big part and the Panthers sure got a big hunk through Stratfords mistake.
I feel for Bay Park they were the big losers.
No one was more pissed off than me with this, but as they say s$$$ happens.
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Post by tank11 on Feb 6, 2018 18:56:49 GMT 12
All Bay Park needed to do was accumulate as many points as possible. They did, but came up short in the end. Most comps are like that, teams calculate what they need from previous races finished, then go out to get those points. Yes, they just happened to be the first of those five undefeated sides to win their second race, so had no guideline at that stage. It's just a little disappointing that a Stratford mistake cost Baypark a place in the top 4 when Palmy were gifted 10 points, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Barry B Absolutely, as in any game, nutse happens. Been in a few situations as such and coached many through the same. Where other teams hold your fate. |
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blair
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Post by blair on Feb 6, 2018 19:58:38 GMT 12
Just do it the same as stockcar teams. That way 8teams still alive after first night and you get a couple of extra teams races on night2. Get rid of the BK series everyone goes to toilet or gets food then anyway. Add a stockcar teams race if needed or sidecars. Sorry if you are a super saloon fan but in my opinion they don’t fit only good thing is you can beat the traffic when there 20 l’appel on.
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blair
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Post by blair on Feb 6, 2018 20:02:54 GMT 12
Sorry that would mean 8th versus 1st on points 7th versus 2nd and so on all with a chance to win it still.
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Post by squiddley on Feb 6, 2018 20:38:22 GMT 12
Do not get rid of Burger king ,They are the icing on the cake .As a long time teams champ veteran, the super saloons are brillant to watch.the competitors love racing in front of a full house. the only change should be, have the saloon final before the teams prize giving.My 2 cents worth
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Post by numbum on Feb 6, 2018 20:40:21 GMT 12
Lets take this a step further, why don't all teams race on night 2 which would give every team a seeding for next year and then have a predetermined format for the number of teams entered.
If a team drops out the teams ranked below it moves up and any new or returning team who didn't race the previous year is seeded in from the bottom, this way there can be no acusations of rigged draws
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Post by BarryB on Feb 6, 2018 20:53:07 GMT 12
It’s a bit of a ‘kiwi’ problem in not wanting to leave anyone out and hurt anyone’s feelings I don’t see that you’d ever have an issue getting 12 teams as there are always 4-5 guys floating around who’d make up a select ‘barbarians’ team in any given year . If you’d stuck with 12 , a team of say Wade, Ngatai, O’brien and Marx would go ok? (Politics aside perhaps you combine A & H , C & N ? Think NRL merger) It's often been a struggle to get 12, the lineup sometimes only being confirmed within the week of the event. It's not that many years ago it ran with only 11 teams. The promotion does not want 'barbarian' style teams, and chose to run with 11 that year instead of having a group of top guys not wanting to represent their club but were happy to race with each other. That could have set a dangerous precedent and harm some of those clubs struggling to field a local team each year as it is. Barry B |
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Post by numbum on Feb 6, 2018 20:58:18 GMT 12
Gee Barry, a barbarians team is that not what we have with the Gisborne team
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Post by BarryB on Feb 6, 2018 21:03:22 GMT 12
Sorry that would mean 8th versus 1st on points 7th versus 2nd and so on all with a chance to win it still. Which would mean three races on the second night for the top teams. I feel this would detract from the final. Remember when Rotorua for the NZ Stockcar Teams they had 6 car teams with 4 on track at a time, effectively two reserves. Not only are the Superstocks travelling faster and hitting harder, you'd struggle to find another 14 cars and drivers to make up the required six car teams. AND the teams would no doubt want more to travel in that case. Like I said before, the other option would likely be the final being one of the weekend's weakest contests. Barry B |
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Post by 00crewchief00 on Feb 6, 2018 21:13:35 GMT 12
Gee Barry, a barbarians team is that not what we have with the Gisborne team Or they just race as a club that dont already have a team eg. Kihikihi or dunedin |
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Post by hbhornets on Feb 6, 2018 21:27:50 GMT 12
It’s a bit of a ‘kiwi’ problem in not wanting to leave anyone out and hurt anyone’s feelings I don’t see that you’d ever have an issue getting 12 teams as there are always 4-5 guys floating around who’d make up a select ‘barbarians’ team in any given year . If you’d stuck with 12 , a team of say Wade, Ngatai, O’brien and Marx would go ok? (Politics aside perhaps you combine A & H , C & N ? Think NRL merger) It's often been a struggle to get 12, the lineup sometimes only being confirmed within the week of the event. It's not that many years ago it ran with only 11 teams. The promotion does not want 'barbarian' style teams, and chose to run with 11 that year instead of having a group of top guys not wanting to represent their club but were happy to race with each other. That could have set a dangerous precedent and harm some of those clubs struggling to field a local team each year as it is. Barry B isn't that what the panthers are anyway? And more recently the gaints without the money. |
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Post by theothermikeyb on Feb 6, 2018 21:34:15 GMT 12
I'm not convinced I have a perfect solution but maybe someone can work with it. I'll pick a couple of holes in my idea as well and suggest a solution to it. Maybe someone can improve on it.
First, increase team size to six. I know that's more expense on teams but a bigger share of the bot and increasing ticket prices will take care of that. They all have 6th drivers but in my scenario they need a car and I know a few this year did not.
Second, remove the warm up laps. They are a time waster and my scenario needs more time. Teams need to read the track and conditions and set up accordingly. If you get it wrong then learn for next race or year. Three minute bells? Well they'll be reduced with no warm up laps I hope but I'll leave them in there for now.
Third, reduce the length of a race. In two minds about this as the length of 10 laps gives twists and turns. Would 8 change this? Hopefully not. Again, I need a little time up my sleeve and dropping 2 laps along with 28 laps of warm up and 3 minute bells gives me that.
Fourth, each team races 3 races and not 2. My reasoning is that this should prevent having 5 unbeaten teams at the end of night one. And as you start to worry about the stress and workload for drivers please quickly move to point five.
Five, no driver may race more than two races on night one. That is, every member of your team must have a race where they sit in the middle. This way no diver races 24 laps (3 lots of 8) and only races 16. The amount a racer races is actually reduced from the 20 many currently do. Team selection becomes a little more tactical as who do you rest your Peter Rees against? Will you regret it? I can see a problem if Driver A destroys his car in race one and can only race once. Suddenly you are one short for the last race - maybe Palmy has some drivers there as reserves to cover this happening.
So there you go, 3 races with a twist for driver welfare and a need to pay a little more. Maybe a team can even have a loss and two big wins and sneak into the top 4. My brain can't cope with that level of maths tonight though.
Biggest flaw in my plan (assuming money was fixed in step one) is can teams muster 6 cars and drivers? If not then suddenly we see a reduced number of teams. Hill back to the scrappers and suddenly Wanganui were two short for example. We do here of a few left out controversially so maybe theres enough drivers out there. Maybe we need to check with tracks first. Could they have found a 6th Car and Driver? Would money bring some drivers back? Given we are paying 55-60 at the moment then surely $65 wont make a huge difference. Thats $180,000 (2 nights and crows of 18000 I beleive) to find 14 more drivers.
Can people see it working?
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Post by keyboardracer on Feb 6, 2018 21:53:53 GMT 12
I'm not convinced I have a perfect solution but maybe someone can work with it. I'll pick a couple of holes in my idea as well and suggest a solution to it. Maybe someone can improve on it. First, increase team size to six. I know that's more expense on teams but a bigger share of the bot and increasing ticket prices will take care of that. They all have 6th drivers but in my scenario they need a car and I know a few this year did not. Second, remove the warm up laps. They are a time waster and my scenario needs more time. Teams need to read the track and conditions and set up accordingly. If you get it wrong then learn for next race or year. Three minute bells? Well they'll be reduced with no warm up laps I hope but I'll leave them in there for now. Third, reduce the length of a race. In two minds about this as the length of 10 laps gives twists and turns. Would 8 change this? Hopefully not. Again, I need a little time up my sleeve and dropping 2 laps along with 28 laps of warm up and 3 minute bells gives me that. Fourth, each team races 3 races and not 2. My reasoning is that this should prevent having 5 unbeaten teams at the end of night one. And as you start to worry about the stress and workload for drivers please quickly move to point five. Five, no driver may race more than two races on night one. That is, every member of your team must have a race where they sit in the middle. This way no diver races 24 laps (3 lots of 8) and only races 16. The amount a racer races is actually reduced from the 20 many currently do. Team selection becomes a little more tactical as who do you rest your Peter Rees against? Will you regret it? I can see a problem if Driver A destroys his car in race one and can only race once. Suddenly you are one short for the last race - maybe Palmy has some drivers there as reserves to cover this happening. So there you go, 3 races with a twist for driver welfare and a need to pay a little more. Maybe a team can even have a loss and two big wins and sneak into the top 4. My brain can't cope with that level of maths tonight though. Biggest flaw in my plan (assuming money was fixed in step one) is can teams muster 6 cars and drivers? If not then suddenly we see a reduced number of teams. Hill back to the scrappers and suddenly Wanganui were two short for example. We do here of a few left out controversially so maybe theres enough drivers out there. Maybe we need to check with tracks first. Could they have found a 6th Car and Driver? Would money bring some drivers back? Given we are paying 55-60 at the moment then surely $65 wont make a huge difference. Thats $180,000 (2 nights and crows of 18000 I beleive) to find 14 more drivers. Can people see it working? I won't pick on too many points but focusing more on the cost one, unfortunately I don't think it's quite as simple as chuck another $10 onto the entrance fee and thatll cover extra cars, it'll reach a point where fans start to question if it's worth going, maybe not us hardcore fans but more the casual fans which this maybe the only event they go to a year in which I think a lot of the 18,000 are. It's already a big expense going with family over both nights. Also while getting rid of the warm up laps and 2 laps from each race will make the much go faster, This also reduces the time crews have to repair damage, and added to the fact each driver would only be able to race 2 times this could result in less than complete teams in the final round of races. E.g. match ups with a full team vs maybe only 2 or 3 cars if severe damage. |
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Post by m8sr8z on Feb 6, 2018 22:17:49 GMT 12
Just do it the same as stockcar teams. That way 8teams still alive after first night and you get a couple of extra teams races on night2. Get rid of the BK series everyone goes to toilet or gets food then anyway. Add a stockcar teams race if needed or sidecars. Sorry if you are a super saloon fan but in my opinion they don’t fit only good thing is you can beat the traffic when there 20 l’appel on. sidecars? We are there to see teams racing, lose the consolation races and add 7th v 8th down to 13th v 14th. |
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Post by BarryB on Feb 6, 2018 22:27:22 GMT 12
There's one thing this discussion proves, and that is you cannot please everybody.
Barry B
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 22:30:00 GMT 12
It's often been a struggle to get 12, the lineup sometimes only being confirmed within the week of the event. It's not that many years ago it ran with only 11 teams. The promotion does not want 'barbarian' style teams, and chose to run with 11 that year instead of having a group of top guys not wanting to represent their club but were happy to race with each other. That could have set a dangerous precedent and harm some of those clubs struggling to field a local team each year as it is. Barry B isn't that what the panthers are anyway? And more recently the gaints without the money. You do know the Panthers have been one of the best Super/Stockcar teams since about 1965 eh |
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Post by sonic33 on Feb 6, 2018 22:57:49 GMT 12
I have left replying for a few days to see the discussion runs its course. Glad to see a discussion on here that hasn't gone off topic. Capping at 12 was a bit tongue in cheek, as why would you turn teams away. There will maybe never be a format that suits a specific number of teams. Still the best meeting I attend every year without fail. I enjoy the super saloons, but would be happy to see a secondary stock car teams event on second night with 8,6 or even 4 teams. ( yes they are slower but I am sure the drivers would throw everything at it in front of big crowd). Or 40 stockcars (capped) with huge money on action rather than winning. could be a weekend of carnage. Even ten teams of four running together (with a 5th car if needed)
Even to take the whole teams thing for the event have super saloons teams. 4 cars 4 laps, or 16 cars (4 per team) with three heats.
The crowd and therefore revenue is there to pay the support classes to take this to next level. Just a case of what people want to see.
Hot laps need to go or be reduced to 2 laps. Possibly even hot laps at half 5 for all teams. I understand that the hotlaps disperse the water put on the track, but need to be reduced.
Night one is almost done timewise. However, if hot laps were reduced there may be an option to have an extra 3 races here from the above options.
A case of don't fix what aint broken, or a change and take to next tier. Thorts?
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blair
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Post by blair on Feb 7, 2018 21:25:32 GMT 12
Barry stock car teams at Rotorua was 5 cars on track 1 reserve car same as at Gisbornewhen they held it , Palmiers and Wellington were also 5 cars. Auckland changed it this year to 4.
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