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Post by steeldog on Dec 8, 2019 7:44:25 GMT 12
I'm sorry But I can't get excited about the new BK series format they started last year. without any live info on track times, all it is is cars going round the track for warm up laps. and then all of a sudden we seem to have small groups ordered on something I don't know about that follow the leader and have maybe 1 good race to finish the night.
Did not enjoy last year and decided to give it a miss this year My wife loved Super Saloon racing, but she can't be bothered by the new series either - never been back. Good luck to them, but they are trying to run a "professional" style in an amateur sport (meant in the literal, not derogatory way).
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Post by spuddy on Dec 8, 2019 8:25:42 GMT 12
I'm sorry But I can't get excited about the new BK series format they started last year. without any live info on track times, all it is is cars going round the track for warm up laps. and then all of a sudden we seem to have small groups ordered on something I don't know about that follow the leader and have maybe 1 good race to finish the night. Did not enjoy last year and decided to give it a miss this year My wife loved Super Saloon racing, but she can't be bothered by the new series either - never been back. Good luck to them, but they are trying to run a "professional" style in an amateur sport (meant in the literal, not derogatory way). Was actually going to ask for thoughts on that, haven’t ever seen it in action myself but it seems to shortchange both the drivers and fans. Towing a car a long distance for time trials, 1 8 lap race then a feature isn’t a lot of racing, especially when you consider they are towing to Woodford glen in about 5 weeks time. The heat races with 6 cars on track when there are 18 there seems silly as well
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Post by woodart on Dec 8, 2019 9:13:18 GMT 12
time trials are a bore
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Post by Gordon on Dec 8, 2019 9:45:15 GMT 12
Burger King - I have followed them for over 15yrs and sponsored cars in the series for some year but must agree this format does not make me want to do it again. Seems like less track time. I think it is 4 laps time trails - 8 heat - 25 feature. Seems like definitely not enough cars in the first 2 to make it interesting. How many cars are registered this year? If it was not for outsiders at the Mount and Wellington last night would they have been able to run? Just my thoughts
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Post by BarryB on Dec 8, 2019 10:00:07 GMT 12
i agree with the posters above. New Zealand Speedway fans are a simple lot really. What we want to see is cars on the track. Lots of them, and often. And the passing done ON THE TRACK, not via time trials. The American way is NOT the New Zealand way, and never will be. That's why the Midget 50 Lapper at Western Springs is the most boring night of the international series overall. Maybe the most prestigious race, may even be the best race of the entire series, but the route to the 50 Lapper race itself is not enjoyed generally, I suspect.
Barry B
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Post by sonic33 on Dec 8, 2019 10:37:22 GMT 12
Agree with everything here. It's not really a series I follow now. There has to be a better format to make the best of 24 super saloons at one venue.
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Post by knownotmuch on Dec 8, 2019 21:19:52 GMT 12
Also not a fan of the new format for the BK. We have travelled up to 7 hours following the old Supersaloon series, but tend to give it a miss as often as not with the current format. Hopefully the organisers will take note and re-think the event.
I would be interested to hear the opinions of some of the other hard core supporters of the class.
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Post by nakifans on Dec 9, 2019 4:44:13 GMT 12
The BK series seems to of lost its way in more than just the tweaking of the format. The web site has had NO entries for the 19/20 season therefore hard to find competitors and meetings and even the public F/B page vague and not up to date with results. The DVS series all thou doesn't have the calibre of cars as the BK series, and never intended to, just filled a void left for competitors who had no racing due to cars competing in the BK series most certainly has more up to date info available via F/B etc for super saloon fans. Someone needs to point out comments made on here to the organisers of the series that die hard fans have stopped attending the series since the change in format. Super Saloons wouldn't be where they are today without the series, but as B.B. says, NZ public like cars on the track together not U.S.A. time trials. Better to admit failure and change to another format than not admit it and fail completely.
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jj
Full Member
Posts: 109
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Post by jj on Dec 11, 2019 20:26:01 GMT 12
We have been avid fans of the BK series since it's inception back in the SScar days. Sadly its not the same as it used to be. I don't want to pay to sit and watch 6 cars race, not value for money. We were fortunate to attend a Mag and Turbo Meeting in Christchurch. What a fabulous meeting it reminded me of SScar and BK in the old days. Racing was exciting. I would like to see it changed back to the old format and I do wonder if the majority of drivers would prefer it that way also.
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Post by BarryB on Dec 11, 2019 20:35:55 GMT 12
The BK series seems to of lost its way in more than just the tweaking of the format. The web site has had NO entries for the 19/20 season therefore hard to find competitors and meetings and even the public F/B page vague and not up to date with results. The DVS series all thou doesn't have the calibre of cars as the BK series, and never intended to, just filled a void left for competitors who had no racing due to cars competing in the BK series most certainly has more up to date info available via F/B etc for super saloon fans. Someone needs to point out comments made on here to the organisers of the series that die hard fans have stopped attending the series since the change in format. Super Saloons wouldn't be where they are today without the series, but as B.B. says, NZ public like cars on the track together not U.S.A. time trials. Better to admit failure and change to another format than not admit it and fail completely. You're dead right nakifans. Remiss of me not to mention it. The class would NOT be where it is today without the SSCAR and later the BK Series. Those series have given us all these great cars and drivers, in both Islands, but now they're being wasted. All those cars, all those drivers, hardly ever being together outside of the pits. Please fix it and get those travelling fans back to being keen on travelling to see your show. Barry B
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Post by dps on Dec 12, 2019 10:16:44 GMT 12
Im gonna have to agree with whats been said on here in regards to the BK format. Ive followed the series since day one & still do. But this new format has totally watered down the event & made it less exciting. 20+ cars there & we see 3 heats races of only 6 -7 cars on the track! This might work in the US with 50+ cars but when theres 20 or less cars it falls short. The excitement was seeing good drivers pass cars.. now all the good drivers qualify well in the time trials so they dont have to pass many cars at all as they end up the front of grid for there 1 heat race & feature. You could effectively go through the whole night not pass one car & win if you qualify first in your time trial. We are still yet to see an official list of drivers who are signed up to do ALL rounds of the series.. Looking at the current standings theres probably about 18 or so cars who are "BK Series drivers" which means the lack of numbers in the heat races will continue this season. its been a great series & positive for the Super saloon class in NZ but they need to adjust it to make it more appealing for the fans not just the drivers.
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Post by prodirtnz on Dec 16, 2019 17:54:51 GMT 12
Hi Team
It's been a while since I've scrolled through this forum, it was certainly a daily routine a few years back. We now have Multiple communication platforms at our finger tips yet at times we struggle to keep everyone happy.
Similar situation with Super Saloons and the most importantly the BK Pro Dirt Dirt Series. I've read the above comments, appreciate everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I decided to comment as over the years I've talked, messaged, emailed many of you, and always appreciated your support with what our class was trying to achieve. I've always welcomed and valued feedback, especially if constructive.
Fact: Super Saloons are a Non Contact high Horsepower Class Fact: Super Saloons predominantly race on 1970 - 80's Stockcar Tracks Fact: Super Saloons over the years have been subjected to run contact class Championship Formats Fact: Spectators Love crashes / Super Saloon competitors don't and they pay for the repairs. Fact: Super Saloons have never been so competitive across the Nation, these days the quality is remarkable.
2018 BK Pro Dirt Series 31 registered Cars, 3 Groups A,B,C two groups per heat AvsB, BvsC, CvsA , 21 car heat races, predetermined grids. I won the Series that year, but witnessed the carnage to my fellow competitors/friends. We also had Huge issues with grid draws, as we run passing points some competitors felt disadvantaged when damaged cars couldn't make the grid for there second heat which appeared to give advantage to those fortunate to be starting behind the DNS-ing competitors. (Was it the car numbers in the Heats or the slower cars starting in the grids that contributed to the crashes?) We also introduced the Double file restarts, to start with they were they a disaster, we tried a few different options and came close to forgetting them altogether but I felt they were vitally important to our forever changing show. Now we have them sorted I wouldn't change a thing. Various discussions were held throughout the season, it was suggested we needed to reduce the amount of cars per heat to try and avoid the costly accidents, and solve the Grid draw issues.
2019 BK Pro Dirt Series 25 registered Cars, in our Series Agreement we had two Format options to choose from and we used them both. Format A: (American Format), Time Trial, 3 Heats. B Main, Pole Shuffle, 30 Lap Feature (More suited to 26+ Cars) Format B: Two Groups, Two Heats (Marble and Reverse Grids) Pole Shuffle, B Main, 30 Lap Feature (Personal down side is you don't race all competitors, same cars in each heat) People don't like change: However over the last 10 years the Super Saloon Class has been open to introducing / trialing new and exciting aspects that best suit our big, high horsepower non contact class. Time Trials, groups of 4 cars, 2 laps, fastest timed lap is used, this seeds you into your Heat race and gives you your grid position. Quick Time winner, H1 G1, 2nd fastest H2 G1, 3rd fastest H3 G1, 4th fastest H1 G2, 5th fastest H2 G2 etc etc. Where you finished your Heat race determined your starting position for your next race, Pole Shuffle or B Main. The B Main became a race to make the main event, everyone wants to make the show. This enabled those who timed bad, got caught up in a heat race incident another chance to make the Show. Who remembers watching Mark Osborne and Steve Flynn battle from the rear of the B main at Meeanee to make the Feature? It was insane, the best race I witnessed all year!!! This format solved any grid draw issues and certainly less costly damage for the Teams involved. At the completion of the Series an online survey was completed by 27 of the Teams involved, various questions from all aspects, although most competitors just want to race 75% preferred Format A over Format B.
2020 BK Pro Dirt Series 24 registered Cars, in our Series Agreement we have two Format options to choose from and we will use them both. This year any Super Saloon Competitor can enter round by round, Test yourself against the Best!!! Format A: (American Format), Time Trial, 3 Heats. B Main, Pole Shuffle, 30 Lap Feature Format B: Time Trial qualifying, 3 Groups, 3 Heats, Two groups per heat AvsB, BvsC, CvsA. Pole Shuffle, B Main, 30 Lap Feature. Round 1 Baypark, Format A was chosen by the Promoter for time restraint concerns, even though this wasn't a concern on the night. Round 2 Wellington, Format A was chosen by myself as we always knew the bad weather was likely to effect the outcome of that round and we had all raced the night before as well. Round 3 Gisborne, Format B will be used. Round 4 Hawkes Bay, Format B will be used. So far in 6 heat races we have had no yellow lights an no damage.
I understand the "American Format isn't the most exciting from a spectator perspective, I also understand some spectators are happy to see us crash as that's there entertainment. Last year at Waikaraka Park, I came in after time trials thinking holy heck, I don't think i lifted, checked my time and I was only the 6th fastest, 18 cars broke the lap record in Time Trials!! From a competitors point time trials is an extremely exciting aspect and most certainly set your nights events up from the start of the night. However here are many other variables that swing in both favors to ensure a quality event is delivered. Our Class is changing, some like it some don't but we will keep trying.
Thanks for reading my Novel, hopefully we can catch up at a race track soon.
Drive Safe, Merry Christmas
Cheers Grant Flynn
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Post by sonic33 on Dec 16, 2019 19:57:01 GMT 12
Thanx Grant. That is a great read, and I appreciate where the competitors are coming from. In saying that I feel 6 or 7 car heats are too light. I think there should be 10 car heats minimum.
You guys put on a great show, and have made the class what it is today. It is bloody spectacular class and great to watch a decent number of cars banging doors. I don't need to see wrecks, just good close racing with decent amount of cars.
Keep up the good work.
Will option A, B, or another format be used at teams champs?
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Post by BarryB on Dec 16, 2019 20:57:31 GMT 12
I appreciate the time it took to type all of that up Grant, and it's great to get your perspective.
When this Series first started one of the things that we as commentators were told to stress was that a big part of the Series was about the competitors showning more respect towards each other than we'd become used to in some of the National titles, the greater respect leading to less crashing, less damage, less expense and less cautions (which nobody enjoys]. Over the years, as the class has become even more competitive as a result of its own success, you've had to reduce the field sizes to try and save the machinery. It's a fine line I accept, however I think that with Super Saloons most fans are just as happy to see side by side racing, caution free, than just the big crashes. But you do need reasonable sized fields on track every race to get the buzz in the stands.
And I fully understand what you're saying about the Time Trials as a driver. 110% around two turns and down two straights. But that buzz the driver gets doesn't relay to those in the stands. I'm not sure how that could happen, unless you had in-car cameras relaying pictures live onto the big screen of each driver hard at work.
And you're right how the Time Trial can set up your night. I feel personally that's why a number of fans don't like it. Too much is often sorted out too early. Not always, but often. And too often for the average punter. One of the attractions of Speedway for me has always been that the only certainlty is the uncertainty of everything.
A lot of circuit racing is a bore because so much depends on qualifying, often moreso than the race itself. The only excitement came when a top driver had a problem in qualifying and had to start down the back. Speedway offered something different. But, and this is my personal opinion only, I feel the BK Series is in danger of falling into the same trap.
It's not easy Grant, and it is definitely a juggling act between what the drivers want and what the fans want. I fear, currently, the Series has gone too far down the competitors path. They'll still be some stunning passes and some stunning nights, but will there be enough to attract those that used to travel to a number of rounds per season, back from where some of them are now and that's just catching them at their local track only?
Barry B
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Post by maninstand on Dec 17, 2019 7:35:32 GMT 12
My 2 cents: Get rid of time trials and ditch the American format. We are kiwis.
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Post by mod46c on Dec 17, 2019 9:53:42 GMT 12
I appreciate the time it took to type all of that up Grant, and it's great to get your perspective. When this Series first started one of the things that we as commentators were told to stress was that a big part of the Series was about the competitors showning more respect towards each other than we'd become used to in some of the National titles, the greater respect leading to less crashing, less damage, less expense and less cautions (which nobody enjoys]. Over the years, as the class has become even more competitive as a result of its own success, you've had to reduce the field sizes to try and save the machinery. It's a fine line I accept, however I think that with Super Saloons most fans are just as happy to see side by side racing, caution free, than just the big crashes. But you do need reasonable sized fields on track every race to get the buzz in the stands. And I fully understand what you're saying about the Time Trials as a driver. 110% around two turns and down two straights. But that buzz the driver gets doesn't relay to those in the stands. I'm not sure how that could happen, unless you had in-car cameras relaying pictures live onto the big screen of each driver hard at work. And you're right how the Time Trial can set up your night. I feel personally that's why a number of fans don't like it. Too much is often sorted out too early. Not always, but often. And too often for the average punter. One of the attractions of Speedway for me has always been that the only certainlty is the uncertainty of everything. A lot of circuit racing is a bore because so much depends on qualifying, often moreso than the race itself. The only excitement came when a top driver had a problem in qualifying and had to start down the back. Speedway offered something different. But, and this is my personal opinion only, I feel the BK Series is in danger of falling into the same trap. It's not easy Grant, and it is definitely a juggling act between what the drivers want and what the fans want. I fear, currently, the Series has gone too far down the competitors path. They'll still be some stunning passes and some stunning nights, but will there be enough to attract those that used to travel to a number of rounds per season, back from where some of them are now and that's just catching them at their local track only? Barry B Not sure what the BK series does, but the Americans generally have some sort of invert system on the heat so the fastest doesn't start from the front. Personally I enjoy time trials, but I'm not everyone. The time trials could run prior to the meeting, so say time trials at 6 racing at 7 for instance so you can rock up early if you want to see the time trials, or not if you don't. After all fans don't generally watch the grid draw so they're not missing anything if they don't watch the time trials.
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Post by speedway511 on Dec 17, 2019 10:50:07 GMT 12
Does anyone know what happened to the 16R supersaloon in Nelson?
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Post by midway on Dec 17, 2019 11:57:28 GMT 12
As a '"Matter of Fact " simplify the system so the average volunteer who works behind the scene can understand its present format . People pay to see a show 90% dont understand and never will, about formats ,points for passing etc . B. K series is great for there class like the Tri series was ,and years back team racing ,,but if you havent got the entertainment on the track ,something happens ,its not value for money ,clubs wont support it ,nor will promoters ,and sponsors a like ...
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Post by hbhornets on Dec 17, 2019 12:08:16 GMT 12
for what its worth i will throw in my opinion. used to love the series. watching 6 or 7 cars go round aint fun. you get that at any given night at any given track. do not mind if every car doesnt race against every car. do feel four groups are better. 2 groups vs groups. with a change over.
also time trails are great. if they were pre event entertainment only. get rid of them from main shows. i do know at baypark this isnt possible. but run them before the main show starts at 7pm. drive wins at fans have something to watch while waiting for the night to start. then do grand parade in order of slowest to fastest lap times. someghing like that would be amazing for fans and drivers alike. but yea time trails should not be used as part of the main event. because at the end of the day its a ontray for what your going to get.
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Post by BarryB on Dec 17, 2019 12:13:32 GMT 12
Not sure what the BK series does, but the Americans generally have some sort of invert system on the heat so the fastest doesn't start from the front. Personally I enjoy time trials, but I'm not everyone. The time trials could run prior to the meeting, so say time trials at 6 racing at 7 for instance so you can rock up early if you want to see the time trials, or not if you don't. After all fans don't generally watch the grid draw so they're not missing anything if they don't watch the time trials. There's a couple of problems there. The times trials need a good track so running them that early is a problem at many venues, as they're still pouring water into the surface to cater for the Super Saloon Class they're about to run. Pour it in earlier I hear you say? It's very rare a trqack prepared for a big field of Super Saloons is EVER great at the beginning of the night, so I don't think could really work. Tracks with curfews at both ends, like Baypark, couldn't be running time trials earlier in the evening. This sort of thing is likely to affect other tracsk as time goes by too, so even track that currently CAN run time trials prior to a meeting, may not be ablwe to a few year. What we would like to happen, and what CAN actually happen, are, sadly, often two different things. Barry B
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