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Post by knownotmuch on Dec 17, 2019 13:11:17 GMT 12
Thanks for the good answer Grant. I have not met anyone among those that really support the class that wants to see a crash, we all like green to chequered races. I will say from the outset that I feel time trials are never going to be anything other than dull, but this discussion has made me think about some of the best Supersaloon races I have seen over the years. Some that stick in my mind is Mark Osborne coming from the back grid in the North vs South to pass the whole field and take the win, Grant Flynn coming from the back at the NZs in Nelson to take a win, Mark and Steve running side by side for 17 laps at Palmy with the winner decided on the line and Donald Gregory winning a feature with his brakes glowing red yet still not lifting under constant pressure from the Flynn's. I can think of a number of other examples of great Supersaloon races, but most of them involve spectacular passing which happens less when those that are going best on the night start form the front.
I still think they are a brilliant class with a lot of highly talented entertaining drivers and will continue to travel to watch Supersaloon event.
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Post by mod46c on Dec 17, 2019 14:40:06 GMT 12
There's a couple of problems there. The times trials need a good track so running them that early is a problem at many venues, as they're still pouring water into the surface to cater for the Super Saloon Class they're about to run. Pour it in earlier I hear you say? It's very rare a trqack prepared for a big field of Super Saloons is EVER great at the beginning of the night, so I don't think could really work. Barry B Not sure this is a big deal, depends if you're an optimist or a pessimist
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Post by woodart on Dec 17, 2019 15:18:12 GMT 12
[quote author="@mod Barry B the invert system is a bandaid to bring some passing back into a racing format featuring(or ruined by) time trials. as someone has pointed out on here, with the time trial format, it is possible to do a complete nights racing, win the feature, and not pass another car all night. that has annoyed spectators so much, that promoters had to bring in the invert idea(which is pretty mickey mouse)to bring back the chance of some passing, but only amongst the top few cars. when you have to bring in a mickey mouse invert system to make up for an unpopular time trials system, its a house of cards.
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Post by BarryB on Dec 17, 2019 16:13:23 GMT 12
There's a couple of problems there. The times trials need a good track so running them that early is a problem at many venues, as they're still pouring water into the surface to cater for the Super Saloon Class they're about to run. Pour it in earlier I hear you say? It's very rare a trqack prepared for a big field of Super Saloons is EVER great at the beginning of the night, so I don't think could really work. Barry B Not sure this is a big deal, depends if you're an optimist or a pessimist Or a realist, possibly? Barry B
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Post by Gordon on Dec 17, 2019 16:50:30 GMT 12
Thanks Grant. As you know I for one hate to see competitors have to spend money on unnecessary repairs (drivers wanting to win the race in turn 1). You have taken over the head job from other great people and drivers before you and along with Vicky and family have done a great job. I am happy that you can inform me on which venues are running format 2 - these I will travel to. For me I agree with others Nelson were you dropped to the back then came around the outside I will never forget. All the best to all drivers and enjoy the rest of season.
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Post by Speedway Central (David) on Dec 17, 2019 19:58:07 GMT 12
Thanx Grant. That is a great read, and I appreciate where the competitors are coming from. In saying that I feel 6 or 7 car heats are too light. I think there should be 10 car heats minimum. You guys put on a great show, and have made the class what it is today. It is bloody spectacular class and great to watch a decent number of cars banging doors. I don't need to see wrecks, just good close racing with decent amount of cars. Keep up the good work. Will option A, B, or another format be used at teams champs? 24 x 3 groups = 8 cars per group so A + B = 16 cars heat 1 and the same for heat 2, B + C and heat 3, C + A
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Post by sonic33 on Dec 17, 2019 21:56:53 GMT 12
Thanx Grant. That is a great read, and I appreciate where the competitors are coming from. In saying that I feel 6 or 7 car heats are too light. I think there should be 10 car heats minimum. You guys put on a great show, and have made the class what it is today. It is bloody spectacular class and great to watch a decent number of cars banging doors. I don't need to see wrecks, just good close racing with decent amount of cars. Keep up the good work. Will option A, B, or another format be used at teams champs? 24 x 3 groups = 8 cars per group so A + B = 16 cars heat 1 and the same for heat 2, B + C and heat 3, C + A Is that for teams David? That is the sort of format I was hoping for each round. I also still like the pole shuffle.
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Post by mod46c on Dec 18, 2019 14:12:27 GMT 12
[quote author="@mod Barry Bthe invert system is a bandaid to bring some passing back into a racing format featuring(or ruined by) time trials. as someone has pointed out on here, with the time trial format, it is possible to do a complete nights racing, win the feature, and not pass another car all night. that has annoyed spectators so much, that promoters had to bring in the invert idea(which is pretty mickey mouse)to bring back the chance of some passing, but only amongst the top few cars. when you have to bring in a mickey mouse invert system to make up for an unpopular time trials system, its a house of cards. Or you could do what the Ozzie's appear to do and have two heats instead of one
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Post by hmac on Dec 18, 2019 15:04:18 GMT 12
Gotta admit, time-trials, heat, pole shuffle or dash, feature(s), works for me. From a racing point of view it just makes sense.
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Post by BarryB on Dec 18, 2019 16:46:56 GMT 12
Gotta admit, time-trials, heat, pole shuffle or dash, feature(s), works for me. From a racing point of view it just makes sense. And you're happy to see somebody win the whole show without every having to prove he can pass another car? Having been a follower of circuit racing in my younger years, the two things that made me gradually switch from only following circuit to only following Speedway - with a period of a few years in between where I attended both - was that Speedway offered both uncertainty of outcome and passing. Lots and lots of passing. So that format does nothing for me at all. But what it does prove is that different people enjoy different things. No format will work for everybody..... Barry B
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Post by mainlander on Dec 18, 2019 22:01:17 GMT 12
Good points Grant im old school love three heats but with the advert of BK Series and Mag and Turbo series . One would love to see the top point scorers off the back and come thrue with each car passed sc oring points instead of fastest off the front if the track is burnt you can just about put ur dollar on the front two rows will be the podium. For the record im not dishing ether if it wasnt for BK and Mag and Turbo series Supers would not be as healthy a state and see only a handful at each track . Thanks Grant for making Supers a great show youve certainly done outstanding work
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Post by steeldog on Dec 19, 2019 19:42:56 GMT 12
Wow. I think I opened a can of worms here. Thanks Grant for your perspective from the competitor and organiser side of thing. I am not into carnage but good close racing, no matter what the class. Anyway. You talked about the thrill of time trials as a competitor. But as a spectator unless I have feedback about times and comparisons between drivers I won't ever have any of that. The wish list would then be to have a big screen with live timing and standings so we can follow what is happening. When the jetsprints were on at Bay Park that is what it was all about and excitement builds when you are talking of tenths or hundredths of a second difference. This is the sort of thing I was talking about when I said professional and amateur. We are still amateur in our facilities that we are unable to embrace the professional style format that is run. The shootout is great because you have all the ingredients of the professional style but is able to be run at amateur facilities and be understood with a minimal about of outside knowledge by the spectator. The ranking of the cars is obvious. Opportunity for every driver to better their position. Outcome is seen. Disputes are handled quickly and on the spot. In the end we have a result known by all. Good to know about the different formats. When is that known and can that be advertised early as possible. Thanks again for all the inputs.
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Post by busterbell on Dec 20, 2019 14:23:39 GMT 12
The new stealth was debuted last weekend looking very different.
would add a image but the page is broken not allowing me.
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Post by tank11 on Dec 21, 2019 17:00:36 GMT 12
Can someone tell me why 23b is able to run a clear opening in the bonnet? All other cars have only forward facing openings if any.
Well as no one answered, I looked up the rule book.
T11-1-9 Bonnet (a) May be flat. (b) Power bulge and air scoops allowed but opening must be to the front only.
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Post by tank11 on Dec 21, 2019 22:21:30 GMT 12
Well, a quick car, but I don't think it liked the banked track. Most incidences and it was in the middle of them. Was nearly past by a saloon car in the final, before pulling infield. That was after spinning twice in the final.
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Post by mick13b on Dec 22, 2019 13:22:51 GMT 12
As the driver of the 23P I think tank11 deserves a reply. We set fast time in our first qualifing lap, not bad for a car that didn't like the banked track, lol. These incidences you speak of, the first one I guess was 46m putting himself in the wall in the first heat when behind me and I was running in 2nd. I was put to the rear with 3 laps to go by a bad SNZ call which effectively altered our whole night. Luckily for me my wife videoed that race and after showing same to SNZ they agreed they had made a mistake and would come and see me later on, which of course they never did. In our second heat we were off the rear, 13th and finish 7th, setting fast time again in the process. Now to the feature. We started of grid 14 and were passing cars. The first spin was caused by some cars getting together in front of me and one took me infield. This happens from time to time when competitors are going hard out in a group. Observant as you are you would have no doubt noticed I was put back in my original place and of course understand why. The second spin I'm pretty sure I did to myself, driver error as it were. By that point of the race I was done for reasons I won't elaborate on. The car was much better than the driver on the night. In closing tank11 by the number of posts you have racked up you're obviously somewhat of an expert so feel free to drop by our pit anytime an give me the benefit of your wisdom.
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Post by The Observer on Dec 22, 2019 16:56:24 GMT 12
Fantastic to get a drivers perspective. Also appreciate the cars you’ve been building over the last few years Mick to keep searching for something different.
Keep up the good work, and appreciate your contributions to the board.
Likewise Tank11 - great questions, and great to get an answer. Now get those tanks out!
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Post by tank11 on Dec 22, 2019 17:07:51 GMT 12
As the driver of the 23P I think tank11 deserves a reply. We set fast time in our first qualifing lap, not bad for a car that didn't like the banked track, lol. These incidences you speak of, the first one I guess was 46m putting himself in the wall in the first heat when behind me and I was running in 2nd. I was put to the rear with 3 laps to go by a bad SNZ call which effectively altered our whole night. Luckily for me my wife videoed that race and after showing same to SNZ they agreed they had made a mistake and would come and see me later on, which of course they never did. In our second heat we were off the rear, 13th and finish 7th, setting fast time again in the process. Now to the feature. We started of grid 14 and were passing cars. The first spin was caused by some cars getting together in front of me and one took me infield. This happens from time to time when competitors are going hard out in a group. Observant as you are you would have no doubt noticed I was put back in my original place and of course understand why. The second spin I'm pretty sure I did to myself, driver error as it were. By that point of the race I was done for reasons I won't elaborate on. The car was much better than the driver on the night. In closing tank11 by the number of posts you have racked up you're obviously somewhat of an expert so feel free to drop by our pit anytime an give me the benefit of your wisdom. Lol, Mick. Not any where did I say you "caused" them, just that you got caught/were in the middle of them. Was sitting in the pit stands for the time trials. You came out in the first run and had by far the best time and track for the trials. No question about that and yours was one of the cars I wanted to see run. The first race, I was standing about the finish line where the car struck just past. Saw you get put to the rear and thought "He was in front?" So thinking was what did the refs see? 46 was pushing up higher on the exits, was there contact? Like back of your car to his inside front tyre? I have done that in the past, timed my slide perfectly and clipped his front wheel while he powered on. Wasn't intentional, just wanted to make my car as wide as I could, to make it harder for him to get around. I didn't feel a thing. Then moved to apex of turn 3/4 (a bit sheltered from that wind) Yep saw the next heat and yes you most probably passed more cars than anyone. Yes saw you put back to your spot, understand the ruling. Thought you may have pulled enough to squeak into the shoot out, as passing was the points system(?) In the final, you and others were moving up places early. Then after the first spin (you?) the movers seemed to stop and others started moving up (18m). Second spin (you?) and 5b was now the mover and running wide previous was starting to pay off. The track went away from 18m and 17m and you(?) The track came on for 1nz saloon, 5b, 6b. Now how were we to tell it was you and not the track(?), but 1nz saloon was clawing into you rear when you went infield. Also I came and viewed the car before and after the racing. I came to enjoy the racing, a whole night and the accidents were. One super in the wall, 1 TQ dropped a rear wheel and a mini stock dropped a front spring, while another dropped a rear wheel and 1 was put into pit wall after the race. My observation (from the stands) is that your car tracks quicker on the exits in the rear than any of the others, 17m would be next. Does it seem that it "snaps" out to you as a driver? So my assumption that you were in the "middle" of the said incidents is true? Thank you for taking the time to reply. ps. about the bonnet opening?
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Post by dps on Dec 22, 2019 19:47:58 GMT 12
23p was definitely fast on the Gisborne track. Fastest time in the hot laps. Was running second in the first heat pressuring 1st was easily gonna get one of those spots. Unfortunately being put to the back after the 46m incident was always gonna be up against it, even after a solid drive in heat 2 off the back where he probably passed more cars than anyone. It wasn’t his night, That’s racing sometimes. Make no mistake this car & driver is fast & competitive. On to the BK series.... There’s been a lot of chat on here about the format (including myself) Last night they went back to the format where each driver got a front & a rear grid in the heats & more cars in the heats. The qualifying time wasn’t so important & boy what a difference! Entertaining door to door clean fast racing by the best drivers on a track that really held up all night. Got to commend the BK series drivers for putting on a quality show last night. Also to the Gisborne club for providing a great track.
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Post by spuddy on Dec 23, 2019 20:50:38 GMT 12
Boxing Day at Woodford Glen could be good viewing
Cardwell arrives for an extended stay, Jackson Lovelady making a comeback to supers in a Boulton car, and have heard rumours of Flynn’s and Cowlings making the trek south
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