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Post by quadzilla on Jan 28, 2021 10:49:21 GMT 12
I know this may start a debate, and is contenscious. I thought the Palmy promotion had decided that teams needed to have contracted drivers that raced for the track. And yet now we have a team that has 3 Palmy, and one other outside driver. Not knocking the team or the drivers that put their hand up to race, i think every driver deserves a medal for racing at this event. But having 13 teams changes the dynamics of the meeting totally, on the Friday they are all racing for points, and need to race and block not hit, you can see that by the change and intensity on night 2 when they just need to win. 12 teams was the ideal number as you just needed to win 1 or 2 races by all means necessary. And often you don't know who qualifies until night 2 or the posts after the first night, previously you left the track knowing the two teams that had their wins in each of the four groups. You will find that most teams that have entered have all got ring ins or in this case have contracted to whichever track but are not residing in that area.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2021 11:18:28 GMT 12
I know this may start a debate, and is contenscious. I thought the Palmy promotion had decided that teams needed to have contracted drivers that raced for the track. And yet now we have a team that has 3 Palmy, and one other outside driver. Not knocking the team or the drivers that put their hand up to race, i think every driver deserves a medal for racing at this event. But having 13 teams changes the dynamics of the meeting totally, on the Friday they are all racing for points, and need to race and block not hit, you can see that by the change and intensity on night 2 when they just need to win. 12 teams was the ideal number as you just needed to win 1 or 2 races by all means necessary. And often you don't know who qualifies until night 2 or the posts after the first night, previously you left the track knowing the two teams that had their wins in each of the four groups. I think stopping at 12 teams this year would have enhanced the event, especially Night 1. When Team GB are here and every other team is keen to race, yes, 14 teams is acceptable as who do you turn away? Omit a team one year and you may need them the next. But this year was an ideal opportunity to run 12 teams, 4 groups of three, which is really the ideal number unless we ever get to 16 teams which is highly unlikely.
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Post by hbhornets on Jan 28, 2021 11:25:32 GMT 12
I know this may start a debate, and is contenscious. I thought the Palmy promotion had decided that teams needed to have contracted drivers that raced for the track. And yet now we have a team that has 3 Palmy, and one other outside driver. Not knocking the team or the drivers that put their hand up to race, i think every driver deserves a medal for racing at this event. But having 13 teams changes the dynamics of the meeting totally, on the Friday they are all racing for points, and need to race and block not hit, you can see that by the change and intensity on night 2 when they just need to win. 12 teams was the ideal number as you just needed to win 1 or 2 races by all means necessary. And often you don't know who qualifies until night 2 or the posts after the first night, previously you left the track knowing the two teams that had their wins in each of the four groups. I think stopping at 12 teams this year would have enhanced the event, especially Night 1. When Team GB are here and every other team is keen to race, yes, 14 teams is acceptable as who do you turn away? Omit a team one year and you may need them the next. But this year was an ideal opportunity to run 12 teams, 4 groups of three, which is really the ideal number unless we ever get to 16 teams which is highly unlikely. I think the same as you. Who to leave out. Plain and simple. Mustrangs however do not think bruce would ever wanna do this. Its not in his best interests. But your right 12 teams would of been better this year only. And i feel 16 isnt all that far away. Just need tigers back and northisland select made up of rotorua and hawkes bay drivers not quite good enjoy going for experience. And you have 16. Or get the aussies out here. I do not feel 16 is far away. Just the venue is two small.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2021 11:29:20 GMT 12
I know this may start a debate, and is contenscious. I thought the Palmy promotion had decided that teams needed to have contracted drivers that raced for the track. And yet now we have a team that has 3 Palmy, and one other outside driver. Not knocking the team or the drivers that put their hand up to race, i think every driver deserves a medal for racing at this event. But having 13 teams changes the dynamics of the meeting totally, on the Friday they are all racing for points, and need to race and block not hit, you can see that by the change and intensity on night 2 when they just need to win. 12 teams was the ideal number as you just needed to win 1 or 2 races by all means necessary. And often you don't know who qualifies until night 2 or the posts after the first night, previously you left the track knowing the two teams that had their wins in each of the four groups. You will find that most teams that have entered have all got ring ins or in this case have contracted to whichever track but are not residing in that area. If a driver is contracted to a track all season long, and fulfills his or her obligations to that track, wherever they reside in relation to their contracted track hardly makes them. a "ring in" to be fair. So "most" teams in 2021 do not contain ring ins, and are filled by drivers who have been carrying their respective track designations for at least this season, most at least two seasons. I think the problem many people have is that they prefer the group racing over the all-in scenario you get with 13 or 14 teams. When in a group situation, even in a "group of death", teams have control of their own destiny and fans can see who is winning and who is not.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2021 11:40:43 GMT 12
I think stopping at 12 teams this year would have enhanced the event, especially Night 1. When Team GB are here and every other team is keen to race, yes, 14 teams is acceptable as who do you turn away? Omit a team one year and you may need them the next. But this year was an ideal opportunity to run 12 teams, 4 groups of three, which is really the ideal number unless we ever get to 16 teams which is highly unlikely. I think the same as you. Who to leave out. Plain and simple. Mustrangs however do not think bruce would ever wanna do this. Its not in his best interests. But your right 12 teams would of been better this year only. And i feel 16 isnt all that far away. Just need tigers back and northisland select made up of rotorua and hawkes bay drivers not quite good enjoy going for experience. And you have 16. Or get the aussies out here. I do not feel 16 is far away. Just the venue is two small. I say 16 is unlikely as we're more likely to lose one or two of this year's lineup before we gain any extras teams. I hope I'm wrong, and Superstock numbers are undergoing a golden era right now, but how long will that last? How long will there be a Gisborne team? A Kihikihi? Even a Baypark? Huntly has the NZ Superstock title next year but can only field one Superstock for Palmy Teams 11 months out. Will there even be a Waikato team in say 2-3 years? Christchurch could also be tenuous looking a few years into the future in they don't keep some of their current crew, and some youngsters don't make the step up. Will Nelson ever get back to the strength that they were? And as for any "select" teams? No thank you. Regional representative teams only for mine, plus the likes of Team GB and Team Oz should the latter ever eventuate at the Superstock level.
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Post by hbhornets on Jan 28, 2021 11:56:36 GMT 12
I think the same as you. Who to leave out. Plain and simple. Mustrangs however do not think bruce would ever wanna do this. Its not in his best interests. But your right 12 teams would of been better this year only. And i feel 16 isnt all that far away. Just need tigers back and northisland select made up of rotorua and hawkes bay drivers not quite good enjoy going for experience. And you have 16. Or get the aussies out here. I do not feel 16 is far away. Just the venue is two small. I say 16 is unlikely as we're more likely to lose one or two of this year's lineup before we gain any extras teams. I hope I'm wrong, and Superstock numbers are undergoing a golden era right now, but how long will that last? How long will there be a Gisborne team? A Kihikihi? Even a Baypark? Huntly has the NZ Superstock title next year but can only field one Superstock for Palmy Teams 11 months out. Will there even be a Waikato team in say 2-3 years? Christchurch could also be tenuous looking a few years into the future in they don't keep some of their current crew, and some youngsters don't make the step up. Will Nelson ever get back to the strength that they were? And as for any "select" teams? No thank you. Regional representative teams only for mine, plus the likes of Team GB and Team Oz should the latter ever eventuate at the Superstock level. I agree with you there. Gisborne and kihi kihi. However baypark has 12 superstocks at nz. Plus a coupple parked up. They are growing. And most years have feilded more superstocks than huntly ever year bar two. Yet huntly are still running the new Zealand superstock champs and havnt meet the hosting criteria even once in the last 10 years since last hosting it. Christchurch will be fine. They have the population and there is about to be alot of money flowing into the city from outside investment as there house prices start to take off in the next few years. Nelson is a concern. And do not have the population behind it enither. However Dunedin has seen alot of growth in stockcars. The whole southren region has. I wouldnt be suprised if the cougars make a come back if there stockcars continue to grow at that rate. Already over 20 with 2 superstocks. How long can this goldren era last?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2021 12:25:12 GMT 12
Is it only speedway where promoters think that giving more to make a worse show is a thing?
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2021 12:47:49 GMT 12
I say 16 is unlikely as we're more likely to lose one or two of this year's lineup before we gain any extras teams. I hope I'm wrong, and Superstock numbers are undergoing a golden era right now, but how long will that last? How long will there be a Gisborne team? A Kihikihi? Even a Baypark? Huntly has the NZ Superstock title next year but can only field one Superstock for Palmy Teams 11 months out. Will there even be a Waikato team in say 2-3 years? Christchurch could also be tenuous looking a few years into the future in they don't keep some of their current crew, and some youngsters don't make the step up. Will Nelson ever get back to the strength that they were? And as for any "select" teams? No thank you. Regional representative teams only for mine, plus the likes of Team GB and Team Oz should the latter ever eventuate at the Superstock level. I agree with you there. Gisborne and kihi kihi. However baypark has 12 superstocks at nz. Plus a coupple parked up. They are growing. And most years have feilded more superstocks than huntly ever year bar two. Yet huntly are still running the new Zealand superstock champs and havnt meet the hosting criteria even once in the last 10 years since last hosting it. Christchurch will be fine. They have the population and there is about to be alot of money flowing into the city from outside investment as there house prices start to take off in the next few years. Nelson is a concern. And do not have the population behind it enither. However Dunedin has seen alot of growth in stockcars. The whole southren region has. I wouldnt be suprised if the cougars make a come back if there stockcars continue to grow at that rate. Already over 20 with 2 superstocks. How long can this goldren era last? My reasoning for suggesting Baypark is that the current promotion don't give a rat's hind legs about Superstocks, although once again I really hope that I'm wrong. Drivers all over the country have shown that they're prepared to switch allegiance at the drop of a hat these days. The weakening of the Palmerston North dominance and the re-emergence of other long lost teams - and the strengthening of others - has been a fantastic thing for the casual fan. Never before have we seen so many strong teams representing so many regions. How long can it last? If it is true - as some economists suggest - that the speedway economy trails a year or two behind the country's economy, one could perhaps see a downturn over the next couple of summers. Once again, let's hope not, however it's difficult to imagine the current surge in car numbers of both Stockcars and Superstocks continuing at the same rate.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 28, 2021 12:48:41 GMT 12
Is it only speedway where promoters think that giving more to make a worse show is a thing? I'm sure it's not, however I think they currently lead the way.
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Post by alleycat137a on Jan 28, 2021 13:03:18 GMT 12
I know this may start a debate, and is contenscious. I thought the Palmy promotion had decided that teams needed to have contracted drivers that raced for the track. And yet now we have a team that has 3 Palmy, and one other outside driver. Not knocking the team or the drivers that put their hand up to race, i think every driver deserves a medal for racing at this event. But having 13 teams changes the dynamics of the meeting totally, on the Friday they are all racing for points, and need to race and block not hit, you can see that by the change and intensity on night 2 when they just need to win. 12 teams was the ideal number as you just needed to win 1 or 2 races by all means necessary. And often you don't know who qualifies until night 2 or the posts after the first night, previously you left the track knowing the two teams that had their wins in each of the four groups. if this were the case there would be no A, C, or H. no ring ins in the Auckland team, every driver is a Auckland registered superstock driver.
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Post by nottosure on Jan 28, 2021 15:23:47 GMT 12
Looking at the make up and direction that alot of teams have taken to grow or emerge, how bad would the official franchising of Superstock teams be to the sport with every team remaining directly under a club banner?
Would it be that much different than what we have now around how some teams are formed, but help clubs such as Nelson, Dunedin etc be able to field a team in these events if they could.
Where each franchises main objective would be to use their own contracted drivers (or have a directive saying at least 3 must be locally contracted if possible), drivers who miss out could be put into a pool for other franchises to bid and negotiate for or worked through a draft system to fill gaps.
If each initial squad is selected by the first weekend of January, any team needing drivers can apply to select from the draft based on placings from the year previously having the first pick and so on working backwards from last to first if needed. These drafted drivers could then be locked into representing that team for the next say 2-3 years if agreed on, before re-entering the draft if not reselected for their original home franchise. This creates certainty around that team growing and having steady numbers of teams year after year.
This could create 16 teams as in some cases there may be the interest and capability from some to have 2 franchises linked to one club. There's endless possibilities around this suggestion, but imagine this year for example if Gavin Taniwha, Peter Bengston, Adam Groome, Carl Shearer, Clayton Hagen and any other non selected drivers were filling gaps or representing one franchise such as the Nelson Tigers via a draft system.
Looking at the recent re-emergence of the Kings and Giants is the franchising system already in use in a non official capacity anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2021 15:50:01 GMT 12
nottosure makes some good points on paper, but I don't think this in official capacity would work. It works in Prosports cause the team taking a player is employing them. I can't think of any amateur sports where a draft system is used. I don't believe it would work in this case for a couple of reasons. 1, Not only is the player not being paid or employed by the team selecting him, he has to put his significant investment on the line 2, is said there would be an expectation that he would stay with that team for two or three years, what if his dream had been to make his local team and he just missed out this year, but could make the cut next year? 3, Thrown together teams don't gel and don't add anything to an event, I don't believe that when all a team has in common is a club/track was desperate enough to need them that the driver will give it their all. We have already seen thrown together teams busting up and disintegrating on track. Can anyone remember an "Auckland" car straitlining a teammate into the pit gate at palmy (after the chequer flag from memory) 4, and I come back to this every time. The event is ideal for 12 teams, went are we encouraging the idea of more teams?
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Post by tony27 on Jan 28, 2021 16:04:38 GMT 12
I know this may start a debate, and is contenscious. I thought the Palmy promotion had decided that teams needed to have contracted drivers that raced for the track. And yet now we have a team that has 3 Palmy, and one other outside driver. Not knocking the team or the drivers that put their hand up to race, i think every driver deserves a medal for racing at this event. But having 13 teams changes the dynamics of the meeting totally, on the Friday they are all racing for points, and need to race and block not hit, you can see that by the change and intensity on night 2 when they just need to win. 12 teams was the ideal number as you just needed to win 1 or 2 races by all means necessary. And often you don't know who qualifies until night 2 or the posts after the first night, previously you left the track knowing the two teams that had their wins in each of the four groups. if this were the case there would be no A, C, or H. You're missing the most obvious 1 of all G, only 1 of their drivers may live in the area, the rest have to travel 5+ hours to race a couple of times a year at their "home" track
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Post by nottosure on Jan 28, 2021 17:07:05 GMT 12
nottosure makes some good points on paper, but I don't think this in official capacity would work. It works in Prosports cause the team taking a player is employing them. I can't think of any amateur sports where a draft system is used. I don't believe it would work in this case for a couple of reasons. 1, Not only is the player not being paid or employed by the team selecting him, he has to put his significant investment on the line 2, is said there would be an expectation that he would stay with that team for two or three years, what if his dream had been to make his local team and he just missed out this year, but could make the cut next year? 3, Thrown together teams don't gel and don't add anything to an event, I don't believe that when all a team has in common is a club/track was desperate enough to need them that the driver will give it their all. We have already seen thrown together teams busting up and disintegrating on track. Can anyone remember an "Auckland" car straitlining a teammate into the pit gate at palmy (after the chequer flag from memory) 4, and I come back to this every time. The event is ideal for 12 teams, went are we encouraging the idea of more teams? Fully agree Ramjam that 12 teams on the 4x3 format is easily the best one for this championship. However with the current popularity in the Superstock class and teams racing and the fact Team GB would've been team 14 this year if not for Covid, 16 teams/franchises is possible since the PN promotion don't turn anyone away. In all honesty Team GB having a year off isn't a bad thing as their performances have slid over the past 4 years. I just hope the time away helps those behind the team realise they need to go in a different direction to recent years around driver selection to get back to being competitive and a factor in the Teams Champs again. The other thing to consider around franchising is only 3-4 teams over the history of the event are consistently comfortable in naming a team each year. The likes of Auckland, Baypark, Christchurch, Stratford, Waikato, Wellington and Wanganui have either had years not being able to compete or been very close to it based on car numbers. Recent returnees Gisborne and Kihikihi are welcome additions to the event, but how sustainable are they if certain individuals who seem to be the glue of the teams decide to go in other directions which is possible. Franchising means the teams and event itself become more secure and each team would become more competitive if needing to fill gaps by drafting drivers. There's also the possibility of the 16 franchises being split into 4 regions of 4 teams with a qualifying series in each region to find 3 qualifiers from each to get the optimum 12 teams for the PN event if so desired. Obviously some regions would be stronger than others and Team GB wouldn't be able to attend qualifying, but something along the lines of a wildcard entry or something similar which may mean only 2 teams from one region qualifies in alternating years could be introduced. Fully agree that drafts and the like are more used in professional sports and players become employees and NZ Speedway is obviously not at that same level. Nothing wrong though in seeing what other sports achieve and seeing if it can be used in other ways to grow what we have.
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Post by sonic33 on Jan 28, 2021 18:32:11 GMT 12
I think limit it to 12 teams and a draft would work. If a team couldn't get a team together then they go on the waiting list.
To make the money go round draft wise it would take Bruce to put out real decent appearance money. IE. 60K say. That way the 12 franchises knew what they could offer drivers to race for them.
Admittedly alot of finer details to work through, but it is an idea that has merit.
12 teams is the ideal format and I don't think 13-14 or 15 teams adds to the event. It also spreads the top drivers/cars thin. Really great to see how even the teams are these days. No longer the days of hoping someone may beat Palmy in the final!
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Post by hbhornets on Jan 28, 2021 22:39:59 GMT 12
Alot of good points here. But one problem. In creating the prefect 12 with 13 or 14 teams inst hard. What happens when its 10 or 11 teams? Outside the 12 and pushed them away. You are never going to get it both ways.
Was only 9 years ago hawke eyes showed up with 4. And mr 19c had to jump in last minute so we feilded a team. Its not until 2014 the hawke eyes have had numbers wanting to teams race.
I would of thought 3 groups of 3 one group of 4 was a better option. Start with the group of 4. 1 vs 2. 3 vs 4. In this group with have 4th place from last year and 5th place from last year. Round 2 would see the two winners face each other winner to semi final. Loses race in hope to score enough points to make tier 2. That way every team race has a bearing. Except one realistically. That sound be the format going forward. Add a 7th and 8th. So the top 8 teams are seeded for need year AND KNOW WHICH GROUP AND OPPONENT THEY HAVE. then your only drawing the consolation guys. That was the worst part last year. The top 4 were just put in at randon. And everyone got put around them. Then they had a werid two group system. If bruce really wants to stop people claiming rigged. He would smart up and put teams into correct positioning.
Last year for those short memories hawkes bay hawke eyes and the eagles were in the same group. Both the yeae before finalist. That should never of happened. Which should of ment wellington should of been in our group. And eagles over in the panthers group. Just my thoughts. On how this mess could stop.
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Post by 4zfed on Jan 29, 2021 4:52:28 GMT 12
Last year Hawkeyes faced Wanganui & Kihikihi not Glen Eagles. Seeded teams cant face each other on night 1.
With the 13/14 team format the 4 seeded teams get allocated a certain number meaning they don't meet each other the first night.
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Post by Colin E on Jan 29, 2021 9:15:30 GMT 12
My reasoning for suggesting Baypark is that the current promotion don't give a rat's hind legs about Superstocks, although once again I really hope that I'm wrong
The fact that The Busters Main Sponsor, Pollock Cranes have started aligning themselves with Huntly Track.
This from the Huntly FB page Huntly International Speedway is pleased and excited to announce the extension of our relationship with Pollock Cranes! Following the recent success of the Pollock Cranes Superstock Teams event both parties are very pleased to announce an extension of the relationship. Pollock Cranes will be the primary sponsor of the Superstock Teams event for the next 3 seasons as we look to further grow and enhance this fantastic event! The great news doesn’t stop there though! In addition we can officially announce that the 2021/22 NZ Superstock Title will also be sponsored by Pollock Cranes with the event kicking off Jan 6 2022. Both Pollock Cranes and Waikato Stock and Saloon Car Club look forward to building this relationship over the years to come at Huntly International Speedway.
It makes you wonder if Superstocks at Baypark are on the way out?
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Post by BarryB on Jan 29, 2021 10:14:54 GMT 12
Well spotted Colin E. I guess we will see what the long term future holds.
Barry B
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Post by beachboy on Jan 29, 2021 16:33:30 GMT 12
My reasoning for suggesting Baypark is that the current promotion don't give a rat's hind legs about Superstocks, although once again I really hope that I'm wrong The fact that The Busters Main Sponsor, Pollock Cranes have started aligning themselves with Huntly Track. This from the Huntly FB page Huntly International Speedway is pleased and excited to announce the extension of our relationship with Pollock Cranes! Following the recent success of the Pollock Cranes Superstock Teams event both parties are very pleased to announce an extension of the relationship. Pollock Cranes will be the primary sponsor of the Superstock Teams event for the next 3 seasons as we look to further grow and enhance this fantastic event! The great news doesn’t stop there though! In addition we can officially announce that the 2021/22 NZ Superstock Title will also be sponsored by Pollock Cranes with the event kicking off Jan 6 2022. Both Pollock Cranes and Waikato Stock and Saloon Car Club look forward to building this relationship over the years to come at Huntly International Speedway. It makes you wonder if Superstocks at Baypark are on the way out? TWS is a main sponsor of the Rotorua track/team and they sponsor meetings-events at other tracks. PTS is a main sponsor of the Palmy track/team and they sponsor meetings-events at other tracks.
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