What is Over-Aggressive Attacking? (Read 5,605 times)

[percy]

Here on the Macgors forum we have some of the most hardcore fans in our sport

So I have a challenge for you and yes, this comes following the incident at the global 248's involving 94p and 5g.

Please define for me either on a principal or rule based approach what is and what is not over-aggressive attacking as of 22nd February 2023?

[BarryB]

I've never been able to understand it, so giving me a reference date ain't gonna help one little bit!! Although I have seen the video of the incident you're referring to and I didn't think it was overly aggressive at all. Some doubt about wheels over the pole line, obviously, but that's a completely different story. The 94p vs 5G incident was made to look bigger than I think it possibly was by the weird way the cars deflected off the wall and each other (and possibly a fence post?). I thought the Shane Penn attack on Brian Johnson at the Palmy Teams Champs back in ? (I have no idea now, but Penn was in the Hickey car at the time so about 2001 perhaps?) was arguably overly aggressive by today's standards, but what really made it stick in my mind was that (from memory) Shane was leading the race at the time and in a split second decision turned from runner into destroyer, destroying himself on the process.

I cannot really define it in any measurable shape or form. One man's overly aggressive challenge is another man's friendly bunt to one side.

Barry B

[mudman]

If I remember correctly, Ross Thurston basically classified it as staying connected throughout the action of taking someone off the end of the straight.
By that definition humphries only has the pole line cut to answer for. However that opens up a can of worms in how much separation is enough during a straight line to deem it disconnecting.
I think a bigger issue is drivers knowingly breaking the rules like cutting the pole to eliminate an opponent taking the stand down on the chin but knowing they were successful in eliminating their opponent costing that driver a title and major damage.

[graemeh]

In my opinion it is an opinion based rule that should have never been introduced. As it isn't enforced in teams racing it's almost like its there to protect drivers from being hit when they're not expecting it, but its ok in teams racing because there's less teams races per season than normal races. By making the rule its almost like its purpose is to reduce potential injuries and therefore not bring possible incidents to the attention of H & S.

I'm sure nobody wants to see drivers getting hurt but it is a contact class and the risk of injury is always there.

If I had to define "over aggressive" driving I would say if there is no separation after initial contact and no attempt to alter your direction then maybe, but so long as any contact is allowed what follows after the initial contact is beyond any ones control particularly at high speed.

Any rule that comes down to someones opinion is a bad rule.

[grindingdisc]

It depends what track your at and whos the referee on the nights…

Too much inconsistancy accross the country it needs to be black or white and paint marked on the wall or not at all..

Some drivers getting pinged for F all and completely legal hits that are way passed the apex of the corner and then others getting away with massive shots

[Deleted]

Those things are built to hit, and mostly it's follow the leader racing which is as boring as fudge...
Now there's a post on over aggressive attacking 😂😂😂

Bring back the biff!

[hienekenno1]

The hit Dylan Marshall did on Aidan Eustace at Huntly a few years ago,that was aggressive Attacking and was dangerous by the way and who can forget the famous take out Shane Penn did to Brian Johnson at the Palmy Teams Champs,that was big as well and was legal at the time.

[BarryB]

Feb 22, 2023 14:42:00 GMT 12 @holden said:

Those things are built to hit, and mostly it's follow the leader racing which is as boring as fudge...
Now there's a post on over aggressive attacking 😂😂😂

Bring back the biff!

It's not a post about over aggressive attacking so much as it is the terminology used in the rule book.

Barry B

[BarryB]

Feb 22, 2023 14:58:44 GMT 12 hienekenno1 said:

The hit Dylan Marshall did on Aidan Eustace at Huntly a few years ago,that was aggressive Attacking and was dangerous by the way and who can forget the famous take out Shane Penn did to Brian Johnson at the Palmy Teams Champs,that was big as well and was legal at the time.

I did not see the Dylan Marshall vs Aiden Eustace hit, not a video of it, but remember a lot of talk at the time. The Shane Penn/BJ one I mentioned in my post too. That was a biggie.

Barry B

[mudman]

Wanna clarify the rule? Just scrap it.
Wanna make the sport safer? Slow it down.
Wanna make the sport more affordable? Slow it down.
Wanna bring back the biff? Slow it down.
I’m all for chasing speed and being competitive but I didn’t fall I love with stockcars for the speed it was for the hitting. Nowadays the hitting doesn’t happen because the risk is too high of injuring someone or doing thousands of dollars worth of damage.
Snz keep girl thingy footing around the issue by changing helmets and neck braces and the endless talk of changing seats where the root of the issue is speed.
Lessen the speed and lessen the risks.

[Deleted]

Feb 22, 2023 15:58:43 GMT 12 mudman said:

Wanna clarify the rule? Just scrap it.
Wanna make the sport safer? Slow it down.
Wanna make the sport more affordable? Slow it down.
Wanna bring back the biff? Slow it down.
I’m all for chasing speed and being competitive but I didn’t fall I love with stockcars for the speed it was for the hitting. Nowadays the hitting doesn’t happen because the risk is too high of injuring someone or doing thousands of dollars worth of damage.
Snz keep girl thingy footing around the issue by changing helmets and neck braces and the endless talk of changing seats where the root of the issue is speed.
Lessen the speed and lessen the risks.

Totally agree...

[Ramjam]

I can't answer your question sorry percy. As you well know, Noone can because there is no standard. Which makes me wonder how the rule got brought in to start with.Imagine the noise rule being changed to "No Super/Stockcar will be permitted to race if it is overly loud". Surely that would never pass (or am I over estimating the critical thinking ability of some people here). Over the years many of these stupid rules have come and gone in different classes.

The question I have for those tasked with enforcing stupid unenforceable rules is this. Do you judge the legally or otherwise of a hit under this rule based on the action, or the results of that action?

If any one of several different things beyond the control of the attackg driver in the incident being discussed had happened, would it still have been classed as over aggressive?
I can hear ppl now saying that's hypothetical, it's imposable to answer. And that brings us full circle back to the question originally posed. What exactly is an over aggressive attack?

[Tapped]

The language used is too subjective to enable it to be interpreted consistently across the board. Wording needs to change, otherwise the rule and its interpretation will remain vague and subjective.

[grindingdisc]

All tracks should have a wall like palmy with the kick allowing cars to ride up and soften the blow, alot of tracks getting around with rather haggrad patched up and straight up and down walls

[Roxcyford]

wether it is teams racing or individual, the rule should be the same for both, last 2 meetings at palmy a so called aggressive hit by 26v on 94r resulted in driver being k,od, yet the hit 94p put on 5g no noticeable injuries, teams or individual, it doesn,t matter, there is always a chance of injury .

[Ramjam]

Feb 22, 2023 20:17:45 GMT 12 grindingdisc said:

All tracks should have a wall like palmy with the kick allowing cars to ride up and soften the blow, alot of tracks getting around with rather haggrad patched up and straight up and down walls

exactly. A lot of spectacular, but mostly harmless incidents (in the stockcar classes) at palmy, would be unspectacular, but harmful crashes at many other tracks

[midway]

You have a Promoter that allows his rules regarding his promotion such as team racing ,then there is a switch back to the writing of SNZ rule book ,and terminology .
Splitting the rules only confuses every one .
Over aggressive attacking gets down to pay backs ,and personalities ,,its not hard to work out ,what happens on the track ,leave it on the track ,and have a beer afterwards ,,but that is now not the case ...
At times i feel we are ruining our sport ,by our own stupidity, and if we dont make some constructive changes , those changes will undoubtedly will be made for us ,with no escape route ..

[beachboy]

Leave it in the driver's hands.
For example the hit from 94P on 5G the Refs still decide if the hit was over-aggressive and decide what the penalty is but the penalty only gets issued if the driver of 5G agrees it was an over-aggressive hit.

Do believe cars need to be slowed down if we want the contact in the sport to continue and not be shut down by higher powers.

[craigmcl]

Not exactly on topic but I got called to the referee's box once while racing in my modified and told I was over driving. I asked what it meant he said don't be so aggressive. I said can you be a bit more specific. He said don't corner so hard around other cars. I smiled walking away thinking shouldn't have sold the super stock I might be better at it now.

[tank11]

Feb 24, 2023 12:08:23 GMT 12 craigmcl said:

Not exactly on topic but I got called to the referee's box once while racing in my modified and told I was over driving. I asked what it meant he said don't be so aggressive. I said can you be a bit more specific. He said don't corner so hard around other cars. I smiled walking away thinking shouldn't have sold the super stock I might be better at it now.

Lol, been there, got that badge too.
I said "isn't sliding the way to corner?"