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Post by grindingdisc on Mar 15, 2023 16:14:54 GMT 12
None of my business but I add my 2 cents anyway. Doesn't Cooper own Hoosier? My understanding is that the super stock Hoosier tire is DOT certified, so effectively a street tire. Used state side in classes that require a street tire. If that is the case what's stopping Cooper getting Hoosier to make some DOT certified tires with Cooper on the sidewall for use on stockcars? I imagine economics could be a limitation. If it is correct that the Hoosier is a DOT tyre and the treads are no wider than 10mm (not a Hoosier owner so can’t check) I see no reason it cant been used, stockcar duro rating is 55 before a race. However, T12-2-60 L states new and radical tyres are subject to performance assessment by snz and approval by the stockcar technical committee, even though the particular tyre may comply with the rules. So I’d say once upon a time the Hoosier was new and radical and was deemed not in the spirit of the class so therefore cannot be used. Interesting reading the maximum tyre footprint is only 210mm I can’t think of any top drivers with a tyre footprint less than 210mm. Their tyres are 235 then deflated making the footprint larger Get your measuring tape out and actually have a look youll be suprised the contact patch is alot smaller with a 255/60 being only 200mm |
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Post by mudman on Mar 17, 2023 10:14:33 GMT 12
Coming up to a full working week since this deplorable decision was made for the stockcar class has anyone that has reached out to snz had a response?
I emailed snz immediately simply questioning the basis of their decision to allow a competition tyre into stockcars but have had no response. Full radio silence.
Made a call to the office on Wednesday and was told I would be getting a call back to discuss the matter and am patiently still waiting.
I would hate to cast aspersion upon an organisation ignoring their stakeholders in lieu of their own agenda but it’s starting to feel that way.
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Post by interestedbystander on Mar 18, 2023 0:12:38 GMT 12
I cant see them selling too many tyres if the trial only lasts till end of season 22/23...I mean, isn't the season just about over already? If SNZ want to open up tyre rules in stockcars maybe they could allow second hand Hoosiers at 50 to 60 bucks a pop! I thought the drivers made the rules and only the drivers can change them. Hasn't that been the reply from SNZ in the past when issues have arisen? However, with all manor of inlet manifolds and fuel injection these days the sport is only getting faster so a decent race tyre could possibly become desirable as a safety issue. I would be keen as a minor stake holder to see that, whats the point spending 10 k or multiples of that (some guys) only for the whole experience to be reduced for drivers and fans due to crappy tyres. just an Opinion.
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Post by mudman on Mar 18, 2023 9:38:36 GMT 12
I cant see them selling too many tyres if the trial only lasts till end of season 22/23...I mean, isn't the season just about over already? If SNZ want to open up tyre rules in stockcars maybe they could allow second hand Hoosiers at 50 to 60 bucks a pop! I thought the drivers made the rules and only the drivers can change them. Hasn't that been the reply from SNZ in the past when issues have arisen? However, with all manor of inlet manifolds and fuel injection these days the sport is only getting faster so a decent race tyre could possibly become desirable as a safety issue. I would be keen as a minor stake holder to see that, whats the point spending 10 k or multiples of that (some guys) only for the whole experience to be reduced for drivers and fans due to crappy tyres. just an Opinion. The issue with using second hand Hoosiers is what qualifies something as second hand? A never used Hoosier brought from Jono down the road is second hand….. The trial will lead to the sale of plenty of superstock tyres for stockcars, with efi being introduced some cars are pushing 25% more power then their carb equivalent but struggling for grip and the new tyre solves that issue. It gives the wealthier drivers the chance to finally buy that title they’ve always wanted. Snz has proved in the last few years that they do not care for what the drivers want. Efi was put out to public consultation and around 20 drivers replied and they felt that was enough to warrant a change. These superstock tyres have had no consultation and in my experience snz do no want to talk about it. They have made their decision and will wait to hear from those that support it. |
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Post by beachboy on Mar 18, 2023 11:13:05 GMT 12
why do consultation when the drivers don't bother to have their say as you said with the EFI.
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Post by interestedbystander on Mar 18, 2023 12:14:07 GMT 12
But isn't that the consultation process in action? If 20 people consulted and the rest did not, then it could be said the rest have participated by choosing not to get involved.
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Post by BarryB on Mar 18, 2023 13:36:38 GMT 12
But isn't that the consultation process in action? If 20 people consulted and the rest did not, then it could be said the rest have participated by choosing not to get involved. They don't use that theory in the council elections when only a small % or eligible voters actually vote. One could also argue that if only 20 drivers voiced an opinion, the rest don't give a rat's and SNZ can do what they like. It's just a shame more competitors don't get involved and then discussions like this would never happen. Barry B |
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Post by peanutbutterjelly on Mar 19, 2023 6:24:52 GMT 12
But isn't that the consultation process in action? If 20 people consulted and the rest did not, then it could be said the rest have participated by choosing not to get involved. They don't use that theory in the council elections when only a small % or eligible voters actually vote. One could also argue that if only 20 drivers voiced an opinion, the rest don't give a rat's and SNZ can do what they like. It's just a shame more competitors don't get involved and then discussions like this would never happen. Barry B One could argue Barry, that the way speedway NZ go about receiving input about proposed changes isn’t suited towards their interested parties. Even after you try going through all the correct lines of communication, snz and their representatives don’t reply. |
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Post by mudman on Mar 19, 2023 9:26:01 GMT 12
One could also argue that if less then 5% of stakeholders are replying to the subject in question then snz need to do more to promote their inquiry.
I seem to remember the request for input regarding the efi use wasnt as clear cut as "should we allow efi to be used in stockcars from 2022 onwards" and read more as a request for technical input from experts on the subject. Not being an expert on the subject i closed the email and moved on only to find that they used that as justification to bring it in.
The issue with efi has never been how hard it is to modify a standard road going car engine to be carb'd (as much as people like Tank11 and D1Dazza would like you to believe) because those same people are buying ford/holden to zf/hq bellhousings, custom pulley kits, custom offset diffs with chromoly axles, race engines, custom made trailing arms. the same companies they are buying those parts from are the same companies that would happily sell them the whole kit and caboodle to make a carb work on a previously efi'd engine. Nothing is standard anymore on these cars so the justification of using efi because its standard is redundant and ridiculous.
The issue has always been the increased power output (which has now been proven-talk to any dyno shop thats dealt with efi stockcars), the uncontrolled tune-ability now that they are data logging their races and tapping on the keys in between races to improve their speed, the use of traction control, throttle position sensors and most of all the high pressure fuel PSI pumping through a full contact, rigid efi car.
The street tyre on dirt acted as an unofficial power cap limiting the speeds the cars can go due to limited traction.
2 months ago snz were telling superstocks that this tyre was a fair alternative to the hooiser with comparable performance. Now they are telling us its allowed to be used in the stockcar class. so what is it? a hoosier comparable superstock tyre or a cooper cobra comparable stockcar tyre? It cant be both.
The class simply doesnt need it and if you have seen anyone these passed two weeks using the superstock tyre you will understand why the class doesnt need it. the gulf between the top and the bottom has grown yearly to the point its becoming dangerous for the low end competitors. This tyre has increased that gulf significantly.
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Post by graemeh on Mar 19, 2023 9:41:10 GMT 12
Anybody have any feedback from any of the tracks running Stockcars last night as to weather these tyres were being used and if there was any noticeable difference?
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Post by mudman on Mar 19, 2023 10:06:03 GMT 12
Anybody have any feedback from any of the tracks running Stockcars last night as to weather these tyres were being used and if there was any noticeable difference? 94a ran them last night and has been described as ‘stupid fast’ by those former equals he was passing |
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Post by grindingdisc on Mar 19, 2023 10:26:57 GMT 12
991c Robb done half a race before blowing it to bits
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Post by Roxcyford on Mar 19, 2023 10:40:48 GMT 12
269s ran on them last night, and said the handling and speed has made a lot of difference, so much so he was in a run off for 2nd in the New Plymouth classic  . |
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Post by stikshift87 on Mar 19, 2023 13:32:06 GMT 12
Good to see Barry commenting without any experience in such matters. I agree completely with Peanutbutterjelly and Mudman. I have personally tried to communicate directly with SNZ on 3 separate occasions in the past only to be ignored or sent purile responses such as "the rule is the rule and shall be applied accordingly". This is despite sending detailed information, photos and more. I find their given intent for a technical rule change does not reflect the actual reality or outcome on a number of occasions. There is little OEM about the fuel injection setup other than where the injectors screw into the intake manifold from what i've seen so far. Aftermarket performance parts such, as but not limited to, injectors, fuel rails, high pressure injector pumps, throttle bodies and upgraded ECU's make it an expensive exercise. Be assured that people would not go to these lengths if it did not give an advantage. So now they are proposing tyres to support the performance gains from the powerplant.
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Post by my2cents on Mar 19, 2023 15:57:12 GMT 12
991c Robb done half a race before blowing it to bits Talked to Harley Friday night and yes he said it's faster then Coupers but the sidewalls bulge out more so it rubbed on suspension so needs a different offset rim. Talked to S/Stock driver who used them and he said problem was the sidewalls moving more then Hossiers so couldn't get set up right to compensate for that. So for S/Stock no real gain in speed but setup issues but for Stocks a gain in speed with possible setup issues but then gain in speed probably out weighs the setup issue?? |
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Post by beachboy on Mar 19, 2023 16:18:19 GMT 12
One could also argue that if less then 5% of stakeholders are replying to the subject in question then snz need to do more to promote their inquiry. I seem to remember the request for input regarding the efi use wasnt as clear cut as "should we allow efi to be used in stockcars from 2022 onwards" and read more as a request for technical input from experts on the subject. Not being an expert on the subject i closed the email and moved on only to find that they used that as justification to bring it in. The issue with efi has never been how hard it is to modify a standard road going car engine to be carb'd (as much as people like Tank11 and D1Dazza would like you to believe) because those same people are buying ford/holden to zf/hq bellhousings, custom pulley kits, custom offset diffs with chromoly axles, race engines, custom made trailing arms. the same companies they are buying those parts from are the same companies that would happily sell them the whole kit and caboodle to make a carb work on a previously efi'd engine. Nothing is standard anymore on these cars so the justification of using efi because its standard is redundant and ridiculous. The issue has always been the increased power output (which has now been proven-talk to any dyno shop thats dealt with efi stockcars), the uncontrolled tune-ability now that they are data logging their races and tapping on the keys in between races to improve their speed, the use of traction control, throttle position sensors and most of all the high pressure fuel PSI pumping through a full contact, rigid efi car. The street tyre on dirt acted as an unofficial power cap limiting the speeds the cars can go due to limited traction. 2 months ago snz were telling superstocks that this tyre was a fair alternative to the hooiser with comparable performance. Now they are telling us its allowed to be used in the stockcar class. so what is it? a hoosier comparable superstock tyre or a cooper cobra comparable stockcar tyre? It cant be both. The class simply doesnt need it and if you have seen anyone these passed two weeks using the superstock tyre you will understand why the class doesnt need it. the gulf between the top and the bottom has grown yearly to the point its becoming dangerous for the low end competitors. This tyre has increased that gulf significantly. Traction control on a locked diff, love it.  |
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Post by mudman on Mar 19, 2023 16:53:27 GMT 12
One could also argue that if less then 5% of stakeholders are replying to the subject in question then snz need to do more to promote their inquiry. I seem to remember the request for input regarding the efi use wasnt as clear cut as "should we allow efi to be used in stockcars from 2022 onwards" and read more as a request for technical input from experts on the subject. Not being an expert on the subject i closed the email and moved on only to find that they used that as justification to bring it in. The issue with efi has never been how hard it is to modify a standard road going car engine to be carb'd (as much as people like Tank11 and D1Dazza would like you to believe) because those same people are buying ford/holden to zf/hq bellhousings, custom pulley kits, custom offset diffs with chromoly axles, race engines, custom made trailing arms. the same companies they are buying those parts from are the same companies that would happily sell them the whole kit and caboodle to make a carb work on a previously efi'd engine. Nothing is standard anymore on these cars so the justification of using efi because its standard is redundant and ridiculous. The issue has always been the increased power output (which has now been proven-talk to any dyno shop thats dealt with efi stockcars), the uncontrolled tune-ability now that they are data logging their races and tapping on the keys in between races to improve their speed, the use of traction control, throttle position sensors and most of all the high pressure fuel PSI pumping through a full contact, rigid efi car. The street tyre on dirt acted as an unofficial power cap limiting the speeds the cars can go due to limited traction. 2 months ago snz were telling superstocks that this tyre was a fair alternative to the hooiser with comparable performance. Now they are telling us its allowed to be used in the stockcar class. so what is it? a hoosier comparable superstock tyre or a cooper cobra comparable stockcar tyre? It cant be both. The class simply doesnt need it and if you have seen anyone these passed two weeks using the superstock tyre you will understand why the class doesnt need it. the gulf between the top and the bottom has grown yearly to the point its becoming dangerous for the low end competitors. This tyre has increased that gulf significantly. Traction control on a locked diff, love it. I appreciate your well constructed and informative points you have made with this post. It’s always fun to go toe to toe with an intellectual savant. |
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Post by peanutbutterjelly on Mar 19, 2023 18:28:55 GMT 12
Traction control on a locked diff, love it. I appreciate your well constructed and informative points you have made with this post. It’s always fun to go toe to toe with an intellectual savant. Traction control maybe not but launch control yes. Look for the sensor on the inside of the front wheel. |
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Post by grindingdisc on Mar 19, 2023 20:08:08 GMT 12
Bit of a laugh reading some of these replys..
Old timers cant quite get their heads around the capability's of todays ecu technology
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Post by midway on Mar 19, 2023 21:05:08 GMT 12
269s ran on them last night, and said the handling and speed has made a lot of difference, so much so he was in a run off for 2nd in the New Plymouth classic . Zoe Hobbs did not need a run off ,she clocked up 10.97 ,in her race , |
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