Saloons (Read 10,139 times)

[Murray Guy (Grandad)]

Hermo, have you still got your car? If so, will you be out and about or being gopher for Chris?
If I've still a car and alive, hoping Palmy will accomodate saloons a bit more often this season!

[tank11]

A lot of these don't make sense now Deb's have been removed?

[chris13w]

They didn't make much sense when they were in...

[Wiseowl]

Sept 23, 2009 20:43:11 GMT 12 hermo said:

I drove the 98w car last season and complained of it being too loose but the owner thought it was too pushy in the front. It's the different driving styles and the different ways of achieving a result that makes the sport a bit of a guessing game.
LOL

LOL

Why do I find that not suprising LOL Again !!

Cheers

Wiseowl

[chris13w]

But sometimes being loose is the result of an undiagnosed push - so you over compensate and throw the car in harder...

So then you tighten it because its too loose... and it gets looser still...

I know that doesn't make sense, but I know its true!

[hermo]

Sept 23, 2009 21:45:55 GMT 12 Murray Guy (Grandad) said:

Hermo, have you still got your car? If so, will you be out and about or being gopher for Chris?
If I've still a car and alive, hoping Palmy will accomodate saloons a bit more often this season!

No Murray the new 98w is my old car. We are trying to get a minisprint finished for the new season but we are struggling a bit.
I will still organise a few meetings here if the guys want me to, I am going to talk to the Welly boys at their practise.

[hermo]

[quote author=wiseowl board=general thread=12234

LOL

Why do I find that not suprising LOL Again !!

Cheers

Wiseowl[/quote]

Not too sure what you mean fella, maybe you have been at the bottle?

[DEBBIE SERVICE]

Sept 23, 2009 20:43:11 GMT 12 hermo said:

I think what she means is that Phil towgood has driven his car for quite a few years now and knows how to adjust it to his driving style, if another driver got in it they probably wouldn't be able to get it around the track at all. Equally if Phil got in another car he would have to learn what to do to make it fit his style. I drove the 98w car last season and complained of it being too loose but the owner thought it was too pushy in the front. It's the different driving styles and the different ways of achieving a result that makes the sport a bit of a guessing game.
I think $70k to build a top car is a bit on the low side actually, it would be an interesting exercise to cost it out but I guess there would be people around who would know the actual cost if they were brave enough to add it up. LOL

Thankyou Mike if they don't understand then they shouldn't reply.
and in saying put Phill in another car,,,, He drove my car when we were in Duniden and had trouble with it. I drove 17r Tony,s car at Kihikihi and I had trouble with it from not been used to it,,as we are saying the driver gets to now there car,and with Phill ,s experience he has a great advantage , as also with Brent 5 m , both really great drivers.and I have a lot of respect for both of them.

[demon]

i have no idea what a new car is worth to build or run!! but i would think a saloon being $70000 is a bit much! sum one should ask john mcgrath 7w from welly what his new lovelady mustang saloon cost to build? that would give us a good idea looking forward to seeing this car go this season has anyone seen it? if so hows it lookin??

[nogrip-31gm]

to find out what itll cost per season or per meeting..pm a few of the saloon guys,ask how often theyr going through tyres,and how much they cost,if theres a market in 2nd hand tyres,and if its worth it.

then the rest should be straight forward like the std stock class...

rims,shocks,driveline...

some people run on a budget and go for the average gear..others dont mind spending large and running zf boxes,and fancy built motors costing over 8K, and flashy pants rose joints and buy brand new tyres and chrome d window rims etc and end up blowing over $40k on a "std stock"...

if you work it out and find some bargains you can actually build a car for f-all..
i havent worked out what my stocky has cost me yet,but i can tell you its a nutse load less than most..

thats just an example....didnt mr towgoods car cost bugger all??
how does it go? exactly..

no point asking the guys who try to run at the top night after night,ask the guys who turn up night after night and walk away with a smile....

buy wisely and try to get a deal with some spares, it all makes the difference..

peace

[imasinnr]

Hi Codi ,
well to start off with everything will break at sometime!
It always starts with your wallet, then that new tyre you just bought that you hoped would get you to the front quicker , and if your really lucky your trailer tyre on the way home!..lol..

but on a serious note :

If your worried about what breaks, then your best waiting for that lotto win...cos driving in this class is a bit like lotto ..

You never know if your gonna come off the track under your own steam (thats a winner on the night, in my view),or in bits in pieces with the help of a tractor!(another few dollars wasted !)

(When the crap hits the fan) Its just like the lotto balls on a saturday nite,....once you go into the arena ,some get bounced all over the show, where others dont even get touched!

The next time you see a bingle at the track go see where the hammers and welders are being used! usually bumpers and lower/top arms ,rose joints always bend/snap, shocks are prone to being bent,steering rack arms get bent, aswell as tyres get popped and rims bent.. these can be repaired at the track and most often you may get out again...

However broken racks , torque arms ,axles ,diff gears ,cracked chassis( that run their coolant thru them) will see you pushing her on the trailer...not to mention engine/gearbox probs!

Fibre glass always takes a hiding so its a bonus to buy some moulds , ( it takes about 20-30 mins to make a new side panel compared to about 2 hours to repair one! without a mould) get a 20litre of resin and a roll of cloth ( u will use it all eventually)

As for width as far as i know is still 1850mm ,
i always take 40 litres of fuel ( u never know how many laps of wheel packing will take place or how long you'll be sitting in the dummy grids),
expect to lose at least two-three tyres to incidents per season,
maybe one rim,
two-three shocks,
two front bumpers ,one rear,
couple of top arms and bottom arms ,
maybe 5-10 rose joints,


This a what to expect in a season ...if your lucky you'll not need a thing all season, or you could need this every weekend? if your super lucky it will all crash and burn on the first lap and you've got a stack of parts to look at in your shed the next morning,as you wonder where to buy a cheap roller or if the guy who bought your proddy wants to sell it back to you ?....lol..

My little piece of advice is : if your planning to go to the pointy end of the field ...then spend all your money on an engine.and get or build a cheaper chassis! ( you can always upgrade your chassis later on)...However if you want to have fun on a budget, then get a good cheap roller ,and a $500 motor ,second hand tyres (upgrade later when you win lotto,lol) ...but go out and have fun ,then should the crap hit the fan you'll still be smiling!!! as the only cost to you has been within your budget!..

[chris13w]

Sept 27, 2009 21:45:04 GMT 12 imasinnr said:

My little piece of advice is : if your planning to go to the pointy end of the field ...then spend all your money on an engine.and get or build a cheaper chassis! ( you can always upgrade your chassis later on)...

That sounds like a good way of having all those expensive repairs you just detailed... lots of power in an evil handling old nail - good idea - NOT!!!!

Get a car that handles and add more power later - you will have a lot more enjoyment that way!!!!

[mark96]

Everybody will tell you something different, as they already have on here.
From what you have said it would seam that you have a lot of backing from sponsors and a well set up work shop (better than most). With all that, if you are still asking the question on affordability than my first thought would be maybe not, because what ever you think it will cost, believe me IT WILL COST MORE.
However if you like it and are passionate enough about it, like most, you will find a way to make it work. It doesn't always have to be about how much money you spend.
My advise is just go for it dude. You want truly know until you try.

[Brett85p]

Sept 27, 2009 22:24:03 GMT 12 chris13w said:

Sept 27, 2009 21:45:04 GMT 12 imasinnr said:

My little piece of advice is : if your planning to go to the pointy end of the field ...then spend all your money on an engine.and get or build a cheaper chassis! ( you can always upgrade your chassis later on)...

That sounds like a good way of having all those expensive repairs you just detailed... lots of power in an evil handling old nail - good idea - NOT!!!!

Get a car that handles and add more power later - you will have a lot more enjoyment that way!!!!

Could not agree more with you Chris13W.

Start by finishing races in something that handles, you can always add HP later.

More races are won by under powered well handling cars than over powered poor handling cars!

[imasinnr]

In reply to chris13w

I said to "get or build" a CHEAPER chassis ,ie a damaged one, or build a copy of a well known chassis...

I also expect that Codi, coming up a class would try to be a sensible driver and not try to use all the horse power on the first lap ...like many veteran saloon drivers that have spun out in front of the whole field ...causeing massive damage to the rest of the drivers pitt crews to repair ...where is why ive put those repairs as listed...!

Codi is starting out and im sure chris13w will agree( when he first started off) Codi will hit the wall, and spin out at sometime! this is where we learn our limits as drivers and our chassis setup as well ...

Its up to him to learn when.. is too much and what works and doesn't ...

After all ,Not everyone who tows a boat with a V8 goes racing around the town with there boat behind them! but rather use the horse power for overtaking slower cars/trucks ,and hill climbing, (sensible use of horse power)

However there are those that dont (like some saloon drivers) they cant help themselves and will still do so ,at the cost of other drivers using the road/track !

I still stand by my quote ...

PS , have a go Codi ...that way you needn't have to say " what if " in years to come.

[chris13w]

That makes no sense!

Who, given a lot of power, wouldn't use it? And a newbie is more likely than anyone to spin up with too much power!

And a cheaper chassis means an old/not very good one - you don't build cheap/good chassis (especially if you're new and don't know how they work) - it costs a lot of money to build a good chassis. (And a copy is often a "bad" copy - unless you get all the roll centers, etc, etc, spot on like the original - so often not a patch on the real thing).

Can you give us a clue what your basing your experience on, as I can't think of many scenario's that work out like you're saying?

New driver, lots of power, bad handling chassis - doesn't sound like my idea of a fun Saturday night - for anyone on the track!

[imasinnr]

In reply to chris13w ,

"Who, given a lot of power, wouldn't use it?"Answer, a sensible driver !

"bad handling chassis" you assumed that i didnt say this !

"you don't build cheap/good chassis" this is your opinion and your entitled to it ,

however 2 lengths of 32nom bore will do your cage and four more lengths of 38mm will do the rest, add to this half a sheet of 3mm plate and a roll of mig wire and your cooking! source this carefully (trade me & local engineering company off cuts ) and you can stay under the $600-800 mark , keep an eye out for large damaged road signs for alloy ( Ulrich in Hamilton sold me sheet seconds :1x sheet of 2mm and 1x sheet of 1.6 mm for $75 each) buy some tyres shocks from your nearest saloon builder and I'm sure you will get more info to help with your build! otherwise the INTERNET has heaps ,if you cant get hold of a Steve smith book!

as for "lots of power,"

I'm sure you've watched drag racing? ...after the burnout, do the drivers nail it again to do a quick time!!!!

No they try to use the right amount of horse power required at the right place on the whole distance of the whole track!

I'm sure even you will agree, the difference the way the car behaves once you power her up, is very noticeable and requires a new driving style ,ie foot more off the gas peddle and more on the brake peddle. and that clutch now seems to smell abit now when i get my foot into the gas for some reason?
...also more stress on axles ,toque arm ,diff gears ,gearbox...that a lesser horse powered engine wouldn't do . and fuel consumption will change a bit so that production saloon fuel tank may not work for you any more?

My experience is based on all the repairs Ive done on other saloons chassis as well as my own...and what Ive built.

PS , my original post was to let Codi know whats install for him should he decide to move up a class , not to get into a personal debate on weather a new shinny $$$car is better than a budget rebuilt one ...at the end of the day a cheep smile on the face is better than a bank overdraft in my view!

[chris13w]

Well, what can I say, you seem to have it all sussed imasinnr - bring on the race winning saloon's for under a couple of grand!

So which race winning budget Saloon is your one, as it sounds like a good counter to the $70K that seems to be talked about as being the least you can get a competitive Car built for?? (And I don't agree that it is either, but even I think its a bit further away from the budget you're talking).

And I'm not running you down, just saying the real world isn't quite so simple, so keen to hear some more details on your wonder car, what's its number and where does it run?

Cheers
Chris13W

[nogrip-31gm]

why does it have to be about running up front?
im sure theres other like myself who just wanna get out there and have a spin for fun, get some experiance and then maybe throw some coin at it one day...

buying a new chassis wont fix all the handling issues either if you dont have the shocks/springs/tyres/air pressures all dialled...

[Murray Guy (Grandad)]

'Imasinnr' certainly has a big dose of common sence and commonality in regard my racing experience.

My car 13r is a 20 or so year old Kuriger built saloon (firstly as a super for Maurice Cowling). It has had no significant suspension changes other than coils front and torsion rear. I have an engine that produces reasonable grunt (stock std vortex? heads) but survives my 50 plus meetings a year. It has been built gradually. I know it would cost me $25,000 to start from stratch, all new, for the engine!

It's handling ability is down to me, not the age of the car or it having the latest technology (which it doesn't) or weightjackers etc.

13m (as below) was purchased (complete with engine and few spares) a couple of seasons back.
Didn't care too much about the car as the motor was built and maintained by a Thames engine builder well respected.



Initially it seemed to go okay but handled like a dog with rabbies!
After a season shakedown it was re-panelled and straightened, set-up reconfigured. Rings and bearings.
Kyle in 13m is now up at the pointy end at Baypark largely limited only by his experience on the track.

Phil Towgood has been mentioned and another excellent example.
Very much an older car with excellent set up skills coupled with a very responsive engine, controlled by a finely tuned brain!