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Post by thetrio on Jan 5, 2010 18:59:12 GMT 12
Saloon Bodies - Within the rules ?
« Thread Started on Jan 3, 2010, 2:15pm »
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Went to Baypark Friday nite for first nite of Saloons.
Great racing, pity I couldnt make the second nite.
Looking at the cars in the pits, from my perspective there are quite a few cars that are outside of the rules with regard to bodies. The rules state that bodies must follow same profile and contour as the production car they are based on.
There is Corvettes and corvettes, ones that look like the original, those with rear quarters that are flat and straight, a short looking one too !!!
One Mustang which is a fantastic copy of the original, then another which has the flat straight rear quarters on it ?
If the bodywork is lesser issue with Saloons, thats fine, but the rulebook needs to be clarified to suit.
What are the thoughts out there with the Nz's fresh in mind ?
The rules are very clear - no grey issues what so ever.
Rule T11-2-1 A Car to resemble an original production vehicle as per following restrictive modifications.
B Only modifications specifically mentioned in this section are approved. ie if not written in these rules it cannot be done.
Rule T11-2-2 To be eligible as a saloon the vehicle referred to in Rule T11-2-1 must have been manufactured within the last 20 years. B Any competitor has the right to apply to the directors for approval to race a make, model during or before the last 20 years.
Rule T11-2-20 Body Part A
Body must retain its original appearance, body model and measurements are specifically required in the SNZ drivers logbook which will be registered at the SNZ office. And available to competitors on request.
Part H
Body panels must retain their original profile and shape and may be made of steel, aluminium, fibreglass or flexiglass to a professional standard.
There are no mention in the rules about slab sides or open rear ends.
At the NZs there were some cars that did not resemble the original appearance of the model they were meant to be, so this must be outside the rules.
Wheel base is a different issue altogether.
If the bodywork is lesser issue with Saloons, thats fine, but the rulebook needs to be clarified to suit.
This is not a lesser issue. It is in the rule book and very clear.
This is not a performance advantage but is just as serious as cars running quick change vacuum secondary units on carburators that were pulled up and made to change at the North Islands. Absolutely no performance advantage. Also no different than drilling a hole in the back of the head to run oil line for rocker squirters. Which is against the rules but no different then drilling the hole thru the rocker cover which is legal.
So bodies not within the rules is a serious issue. This is what rules are for.
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Post by japsuper on Jan 5, 2010 21:51:12 GMT 12
I dont disagree that the rules are quite clear.
So what does it take to enforce them, surely no car should be greensheeted if it doesnt comply, or is it up to competitors to protest ?
The results of Saturday nite could certainly have been affected by such a protest.
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Jan 5, 2010 22:41:01 GMT 12
... So what does it take to enforce them, surely no car should be greensheeted if it doesn't comply, or is it up to competitors to protest ? ... Sadly rules are being applied, enforced selectively, likewise penalties, race and vehicle rules. Of course those flouting the saloon body shape rules with flat panels and no rear panels have an advantage, and they know it! Less weight, greater cooling, significantly reduced track material (mud) stuck to the underside, and peppering crap all over following cars and spectators! And yes, the system has competitors as the police, doing the monitoring, most choosing to say nothing 'officially' as they don't want to be labeled a 'complainer'. Those that do try to ensure rules are adhered to, usually have officials responding they are blind (didn't see), so the complaint achieves nothing other than ridicule for the aggrieved competitor. |
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Post by thetrio on Jan 6, 2010 11:47:34 GMT 12
Integrity. The unbiased application of the rules, without 'fear or favor'.
Sadly rules are being applied, enforced selectively, likewise penalties, race and vehicle rules.
Of course those flouting the saloon body shape rules with flat panels and no rear panels have an advantage, and they know it!
Less weight, greater cooling, significantly reduced track material (mud) stuck to the underside, and peppering crap all over following cars and spectators!
And yes, the system has competitors as the police, doing the monitoring, most choosing to say nothing 'officially' as they don't want to be labeled a 'complainer'.
Those that do try to ensure rules are adhered to, usually have officials responding they are blind (didn't see), so the complaint achieves nothing other than ridicule for the aggrieved competitor.
So you think they are outside the rules Murray
And apparently there was something said to the Tech people but nothing done
Would have the same 1NZ if the rules were enforced
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Post by NutZ on Jan 6, 2010 12:06:00 GMT 12
... So you think they are outside the rules Murray And apparently there was something said to the Tech people but nothing done Would have the same 1NZ if the rules were enforced Who are they? who are you? Are you one of them? |
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Post by Admin on Jan 6, 2010 12:13:10 GMT 12
well all I can say is that the more ugly saloons and super saloons are looking the less inclined I am to watch them .
Glamour is a big part of the speedway attraction just as it is in other aspects of life .
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Post by karencarey on Jan 6, 2010 13:52:32 GMT 12
Well said Mr Macgor. Couldn't agree more. Wedges are for stopping the door shutting in the wind.
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Post by scrapstar on Jan 6, 2010 22:12:19 GMT 12
if rules were followed nzs would have trun out diffrent maybe it should b 1 rule 4 evey1 to follow and it doesent matter who u r
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flo5
New Member
Posts: 20
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Post by flo5 on Jan 7, 2010 6:56:19 GMT 12
Having read the article on late models in the NSS I can understand what some within the class are trying to achieve, I see no reason why wedge styled bodies shouldn't be used within our premium tin-top class. Having said that I don't actually like the look of a car where the only difference in a 20 car grid would be the manufacturers nose graphics & body colour/graphics!
Maybe the time has come to drop the Saloon from Super Saloon & re-brand the class for 2010 & beyond?
As for the Saloon class, could we not have a registered list of SNZ approved make & model fiberglass bodies, therefore ruling out officials call on the night/protests, etc.
V8 Supercars is Falcon v Commodore, 3-4 Saloon car bodies doesn't = boring racing, creating a set of rules which will allow for the building of a reasonably priced car race similar except for running gear/body = exciting racing.....
Cheers
PS: I don't race/crew or otherwise in either class, these are one man's opinion but I luv the Saloon class.
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Post by bikeboy on Jan 7, 2010 9:02:49 GMT 12
Flo5, your idea has merit for sure, but to impose a big cost on alot of competitors that have bodies outside the rule is hardly in the best interest of the any class, my body would be outside the rules and since it is alloy it would take a bit of work to fit a few body,
its a difficult rule to enforce, and like alot of rules as soon as it is enforced someone comes running in here to winge about how unfailry they have been treated and everybody else has been doing it for years,
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Post by thetrio on Jan 7, 2010 9:36:43 GMT 12
Flo5, your idea has merit for sure, but to impose a big cost on alot of competitors that have bodies outside the rule is hardly in the best interest of the any class, my body would be outside the rules and since it is alloy it would take a bit of work to fit a few body,
Bikeboy so you say your car is out side the rules so why build it that way you should build it to the rule book and the body rules are were clear
its a difficult rule to enforce, and like alot of rules as soon as it is enforced someone comes running in here to winge about how unfailry they have been treated and everybody else has been doing it for years,
[u]Not [/u][/color]difficult to enforce it is inside the rules or not the problem is with the tech people not doing there job
It may not be a big deal but were do you draw the line(thats what the rules are meant to be there for arnt they???)
what Next Alloy heads,105 tires or should we just let them go super
I think not if you what to do these sorts of thing then you should be green sheeted as a super not a saloon
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Post by japsuper on Jan 7, 2010 11:17:27 GMT 12
As suggested I wouldnt want to see any list of approved fibreglass bodies.
When you start going along this track what next, a list of approved chassis ?
Speedway should be about being able to build your own gear, if you wish and have the ability. Then there are manufacturers who can do it for you if you want to pay. Both go hand in hand.
Back to the Bodies, again there are plenty who have the ability to build there own bodies, whether fibreglass or sheetmetal so we dont need to be going to approved bodies, then we will have 5 shapes maximum ? BORING !
Why I started the first thread was that some of the competitors seem to be taking the p**s with their body shapes and they dont comply with the rules. Lets face it, you are unlikely to be able to build a perfect copy of a manufacturers shape, but some of the variants out there are miles out !!!
But same old with SNZ and policing to rules in many classes, just slips through and she'll be right. So where to from here ? it seems to me, it's now acceptable to build semi look alike cars ?
By the way, I am not involved in any way with the Saloon class, so not pushing any barrow. I do have interest in joining the class but want to be clear on what is going on with the bodies.
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Post by bikeboy on Jan 7, 2010 12:29:04 GMT 12
i never said my car was outside the rules, i said that it is not fibreglass, and if i had to go to the cost of replacing the body with an approved one it would cost me and quite a few other drivers alot to go to an approved body fitted, signwritten etc,
the car was brought the way it is, and greensheeted for many years before i got it, if someone was to tell me it is now not legal anymore under the same rules for sure i will have a dummie spit over it,
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Post by strx7 on Jan 7, 2010 16:48:53 GMT 12
Exactly what happens to the stratford car that was trailered at the north islands in rotorua, vehicle purchased, green sheeted (good to go racing) or so they thought. |
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Post by thetrio on Jan 7, 2010 17:47:39 GMT 12
Bikeboy you are in the same boat as many others
all I can suggest is you read the rule book again and again and again
the body rules are very clear
Rule T11-2-20 Body Part A
Body must retain its original appearance, body model and measurements are specifically required in the SNZ drivers logbook which will be registered at the SNZ office. And available to competitors on request.
Part H
Body panels must retain their original profile and shape and may be made of steel, aluminium, fibreglass or flexiglass to a professional standard
If someone has purchased a saloon that is not within the rules
and has been greensheeted before it only tell me one thing
THE TECH POEPLE ARE NOT DOING THERE JOB
and this is all classes
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Post by nzf2stocks. on Jan 7, 2010 21:12:01 GMT 12
My 2c (plus gst), I think that the body/wheelbase rule should be dropped, and all cars to be within 92-98", with a maximum width (which I believe they have, but have seen 2 or 3 cars that were clearly over width without any comment being made) The reason? to allow updating of bodies (20 year rule) without having to change the wheelbase to match.
A lot of cars out there look like they have just had a sheet of alloy folded ovet the rollcage and rivited on with the identifying lights roughly painted on afterwards, they look crap. There are plenty of body options out there and updating a section at a time when the old ones become damaged isn't too hard, that way you can keep the cars body up to date.
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