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Post by mudman on Apr 4, 2024 14:32:00 GMT 12
Even if they had been allowed, I can’t see any drivers wanting to go to the expense of building a mid-pack superstock.
Building a mid-pack super is fine with a Toyota or a Nissan because there’s the potential to pick up a top spec engine and go straight to top end car. That potential isn’t there with the crate engine.
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Post by midway on Apr 4, 2024 16:14:25 GMT 12
Even if they had been allowed, I can’t see any drivers wanting to go to the expense of building a mid-pack superstock. Building a mid-pack super is fine with a Toyota or a Nissan because there’s the potential to pick up a top spec engine and go straight to top end car. That potential isn’t there with the crate engine. Yes you could be quiet right in your thinking But then with your crate 350 engine going past Mr Hemi parked up in the middle of the track going no where other than on a tow wagon because he is more of a target you would enjoy your race meeting more .There is a lot of merit in being a budget racer .. |
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Post by holden65 on Apr 4, 2024 17:56:38 GMT 12
Even if they had been allowed, I can’t see any drivers wanting to go to the expense of building a mid-pack superstock. Building a mid-pack super is fine with a Toyota or a Nissan because there’s the potential to pick up a top spec engine and go straight to top end car. That potential isn’t there with the crate engine. Yes you could be quiet right in your thinking But then with your crate 350 engine going past Mr Hemi parked up in the middle of the track going no where other than on a tow wagon because he is more of a target you would enjoy your race meeting more .There is a lot of merit in being a budget racer .. They aren't as slow as people seem to think lacking in horse power yes.but huge on torque which the toyotas nissans etc lack.when we had our superstock with the very first trial engine paul demmanser drove it one night and passed peter b and Pete rees in the corners.just lost top end speed on the straights, by memory we paid 15k for the ex 77p car with tons of spares but no engine.the engine was around 6k landed here .bought a 650 quicksilver carb and a new flexi plate as the old chev engine was a different stud pattern. All up was racing for around 23k .mate drove it for couple of seasons as I was recovering from broken vertebras. Ended up selling car for 26k .so first race car in 25 years I actually made on and not lost on 🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by grindingdisc on Apr 4, 2024 18:20:34 GMT 12
A quick search online with todays prices you are looking around $13k for a 350 crate engine
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Post by holden65 on Apr 4, 2024 18:32:34 GMT 12
A quick search online with todays prices you are looking around $13k for a 350 crate engine A gm602 circle track engine is around $8500 ATM the 13k you referring to will be a 350 road car crate engine |
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Post by grindingdisc on Apr 4, 2024 18:44:58 GMT 12
A quick search online with todays prices you are looking around $13k for a 350 crate engine A gm602 circle track engine is around $8500 ATM the 13k you referring to will be a 350 road car crate engine Sorry mate You able to share a link to that? Ive found that motor from a few sources but its looking about 10k NZD plus freight and taxes I imagine that would end up the same if not more |
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Post by holden65 on Apr 4, 2024 18:50:51 GMT 12
www.karlskustoms.com or www.jegs.com. jegs are listing them for just over 6k.i screen sjotted it but not sure how to post the pic off my phone onto here as don't have a computer
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Post by grindingdisc on Apr 4, 2024 18:56:32 GMT 12
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Post by holden65 on Apr 4, 2024 18:58:32 GMT 12
It's the bottom one in your link that the trial engine was based on 6k us dollars so yeah nz bucks be round 11k .we got ours when the $$$$ was high plus inflation etc gone up |
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Post by brendanlucas on Apr 5, 2024 5:04:21 GMT 12
I was instrumental in getting the CT350 trial engine off the ground. It was done so because we thought this engine would give an option that would allow some teams into the superstock class, where for reasons (mostly budget) they otherwise would not be there, thus allowing the class to grow. At the time, numbers where down. It was not intended to allow a team using a half arse pile of crap to be competitive, you still needed sound race craft – suspension adjustments, driver capability, well maintained gear, etc.
The first CT350 engines sat around $6k mark, self built engines could be built for ~ $15k, but most competitive engines where $50k plus.
As it happened, the CT350 was not particularly competitive on a tacky heavy track, but as the track slicked out this engine (provided all the other ducks where in a row) become very competitive.
There was push back from those saying ‘What about the money we’ve spent?’ & ‘What about the development we have put into existing engines?’ All fair questions. And another comment was ‘just allow the superstock class to evolve by itself without such limits.
Through my own viewing glasses, I have always thought there main concideration is when it comes to successful speedway ‘What do the paying public want?’. As far as I was concerned, the basic rules are the senses of sight and sound, and to a lesser degree smell, must all be satisfied. Sight and sound is not going to be satisfied with 1 or 2 cars on the track, which was true in some cases at the time. The paying public must come first. At the time, we had just come out of the GFC (global financial crisis) and numbers were down. Subsequent, our economy here in NZ has allowed speedway to flourish, & superstock numbers have grown without the crate engine. We would be kidding ourselves if we thought numbers will grow or even maintain current numbers, given the geopolitics going on and the economic head winds we are likely to see.
Is the CT350 a good fit? In my opinion, & you will likely get 20 different opinions if you asked 20 different persons (PC crap), there is room for a crate engine, but one produced in New Zealand and sold through SNZ devised system (similar to what Kartsport do with there tyres), with the brief being it must have a particular torque curve, a particular hp range, whilst being under say $15k in cost (or whatever to make it affordable), but not something that will make current top engines uncompetitive. I say built in NZ, because why should those ‘fat cat’ USA pencil pusher’s from GM benefit from our sport when they have no skin in the game.
Another option in future proofing the super stock/stockcar class, (in my humble opinion) is allowing stockcars to run with free flowing headers, & superstocks to run restrictor plate along with tyre change, allowing them to race with stockcars. Free flow headers will allow the stockcars to sound better, not certain but performance won’t be affected (could be wrong), and costs may actually go down. Something to think about.
One positive from the trial engine, some of the top engine builders at the time looked into there belly buttons and started producing engines for under $30k. I never set out to be friends with any of the top engine builders of the day, those with the shiny doors, but I did want to consider those old school engine builders who had helped build the class over a long time, which ultimately diminished some motivation for continuing with the CT350 engine.
BL
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Post by midway on Apr 5, 2024 8:51:32 GMT 12
You will be held up for copy write ,it is the same page of written information thats been hanging on the wall beside your porcelain seat in your museum of relics ..
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Post by brendanlucas on Apr 5, 2024 9:14:49 GMT 12
You will be held up for copy write ,it is the same page of written information thats been hanging on the wall beside your porcelain seat in your museum of relics .. I know its not Vallentines day, but this is for you; Pansies Roses Iris's Carnation's Kalmia's  |
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Post by interestedbystander on Apr 5, 2024 10:06:14 GMT 12
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Post by interestedbystander on Apr 5, 2024 10:21:57 GMT 12
Even if they had been allowed, I can’t see any drivers wanting to go to the expense of building a mid-pack superstock. Building a mid-pack super is fine with a Toyota or a Nissan because there’s the potential to pick up a top spec engine and go straight to top end car. That potential isn’t there with the crate engine. Have to remember every car that doesnt win is a mid pack runner. there can only be one winner. But none of those guys started off saying im going to buy or build a nutsty or slow superstock. I seem to remember about a decade or more ago the old rule of thumb was a toyota with 400hp would cost $7000. How much is that now days? |
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daleh
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Post by daleh on Apr 5, 2024 12:50:13 GMT 12
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Post by interestedbystander on Apr 5, 2024 13:00:44 GMT 12
they have the ct350 known as the 602 and 400 known as the 604. 378 and 404 hp. Both SBC. I like the 604, and its still 100 hp less than whats winning out there currently. im hearing 540 hp lately... |
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Post by sonic33 on Apr 5, 2024 20:07:16 GMT 12
I was instrumental in getting the CT350 trial engine off the ground. It was done so because we thought this engine would give an option that would allow some teams into the superstock class, where for reasons (mostly budget) they otherwise would not be there, thus allowing the class to grow. At the time, numbers where down. It was not intended to allow a team using a half arse pile of crap to be competitive, you still needed sound race craft – suspension adjustments, driver capability, well maintained gear, etc. The first CT350 engines sat around $6k mark, self built engines could be built for ~ $15k, but most competitive engines where $50k plus. As it happened, the CT350 was not particularly competitive on a tacky heavy track, but as the track slicked out this engine (provided all the other ducks where in a row) become very competitive. There was push back from those saying ‘What about the money we’ve spent?’ & ‘What about the development we have put into existing engines?’ All fair questions. And another comment was ‘just allow the superstock class to evolve by itself without such limits. Through my own viewing glasses, I have always thought there main concideration is when it comes to successful speedway ‘What do the paying public want?’. As far as I was concerned, the basic rules are the senses of sight and sound, and to a lesser degree smell, must all be satisfied. Sight and sound is not going to be satisfied with 1 or 2 cars on the track, which was true in some cases at the time. The paying public must come first. At the time, we had just come out of the GFC (global financial crisis) and numbers were down. Subsequent, our economy here in NZ has allowed speedway to flourish, & superstock numbers have grown without the crate engine. We would be kidding ourselves if we thought numbers will grow or even maintain current numbers, given the geopolitics going on and the economic head winds we are likely to see. Is the CT350 a good fit? In my opinion, & you will likely get 20 different opinions if you asked 20 different persons (PC crap), there is room for a crate engine, but one produced in New Zealand and sold through SNZ devised system (similar to what Kartsport do with there tyres), with the brief being it must have a particular torque curve, a particular hp range, whilst being under say $15k in cost (or whatever to make it affordable), but not something that will make current top engines uncompetitive. I say built in NZ, because why should those ‘fat cat’ USA pencil pusher’s from GM benefit from our sport when they have no skin in the game. Another option in future proofing the super stock/stockcar class, (in my humble opinion) is allowing stockcars to run with free flowing headers, & superstocks to run restrictor plate along with tyre change, allowing them to race with stockcars. Free flow headers will allow the stockcars to sound better, not certain but performance won’t be affected (could be wrong), and costs may actually go down. Something to think about. One positive from the trial engine, some of the top engine builders at the time looked into there belly buttons and started producing engines for under $30k. I never set out to be friends with any of the top engine builders of the day, those with the shiny doors, but I did want to consider those old school engine builders who had helped build the class over a long time, which ultimately diminished some motivation for continuing with the CT350 engine. BL so why not let it be an option? It doesn't have to be mandatory, but gives the guys racing to a budget a relatively competitive engine for a decent price. I am not thinking those that would run the option being pissed if they were a second off. For it to be voted out it seems people with their own agendas have lead to no change. There are quite a few influential people that can dictate where the sport goes, and I don't think that is well for the sport. I think that is a shame. Thanx Brendan for your reply. I understand what the mega buck guys have spent on development and performance and that will never change. They will still chase every performance way of doing what they do, because they have the funds to do so. This is not a new issue. They would even find a way of tweaking the crate engine! I almost deleted this post (prior to posting) as my opinion means absolutely nothing. I would like to see speedway go forward but it is being held back by an out of date constitution and too many personal agendas As a previous most weekend spectator (travelling far and wide )I am now doing less than half doz meets a season. |
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Post by superstocker on Apr 5, 2024 20:50:05 GMT 12
I was instrumental in getting the CT350 trial engine off the ground. It was done so because we thought this engine would give an option that would allow some teams into the superstock class, where for reasons (mostly budget) they otherwise would not be there, thus allowing the class to grow. At the time, numbers where down. It was not intended to allow a team using a half arse pile of crap to be competitive, you still needed sound race craft – suspension adjustments, driver capability, well maintained gear, etc. The first CT350 engines sat around $6k mark, self built engines could be built for ~ $15k, but most competitive engines where $50k plus. As it happened, the CT350 was not particularly competitive on a tacky heavy track, but as the track slicked out this engine (provided all the other ducks where in a row) become very competitive. There was push back from those saying ‘What about the money we’ve spent?’ & ‘What about the development we have put into existing engines?’ All fair questions. And another comment was ‘just allow the superstock class to evolve by itself without such limits. Through my own viewing glasses, I have always thought there main concideration is when it comes to successful speedway ‘What do the paying public want?’. As far as I was concerned, the basic rules are the senses of sight and sound, and to a lesser degree smell, must all be satisfied. Sight and sound is not going to be satisfied with 1 or 2 cars on the track, which was true in some cases at the time. The paying public must come first. At the time, we had just come out of the GFC (global financial crisis) and numbers were down. Subsequent, our economy here in NZ has allowed speedway to flourish, & superstock numbers have grown without the crate engine. We would be kidding ourselves if we thought numbers will grow or even maintain current numbers, given the geopolitics going on and the economic head winds we are likely to see. Is the CT350 a good fit? In my opinion, & you will likely get 20 different opinions if you asked 20 different persons (PC crap), there is room for a crate engine, but one produced in New Zealand and sold through SNZ devised system (similar to what Kartsport do with there tyres), with the brief being it must have a particular torque curve, a particular hp range, whilst being under say $15k in cost (or whatever to make it affordable), but not something that will make current top engines uncompetitive. I say built in NZ, because why should those ‘fat cat’ USA pencil pusher’s from GM benefit from our sport when they have no skin in the game. Another option in future proofing the super stock/stockcar class, (in my humble opinion) is allowing stockcars to run with free flowing headers, & superstocks to run restrictor plate along with tyre change, allowing them to race with stockcars. Free flow headers will allow the stockcars to sound better, not certain but performance won’t be affected (could be wrong), and costs may actually go down. Something to think about. One positive from the trial engine, some of the top engine builders at the time looked into there belly buttons and started producing engines for under $30k. I never set out to be friends with any of the top engine builders of the day, those with the shiny doors, but I did want to consider those old school engine builders who had helped build the class over a long time, which ultimately diminished some motivation for continuing with the CT350 engine. BL so why not let it be an option? It doesn't have to be mandatory, but gives the guys racing to a budget a relatively competitive engine for a decent price. I am not thinking those that would run the option being pissed if they were a second off. For it to be voted out it seems people with their own agendas have lead to no change. There are quite a few influential people that can dictate where the sport goes, and I don't think that is well for the sport. I think that is a shame. Thanx Brendan for your reply. I understand what the mega buck guys have spent on development and performance and that will never change. They will still chase every performance way of doing what they do, because they have the funds to do so. This is not a new issue. They would even find a way of tweaking the crate engine! I almost deleted this post (prior to posting) as my opinion means absolutely nothing. I would like to see speedway go forward but it is being held back by an out of date constitution and too many personal agendas As a previous most weekend spectator (travelling far and wide )I am now doing less than half doz meets a season. Or you could just build a Toyota that will be the same as a crate motor for the same price… |
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Post by sonic33 on Apr 5, 2024 21:07:16 GMT 12
so why not let it be an option? It doesn't have to be mandatory, but gives the guys racing to a budget a relatively competitive engine for a decent price. I am not thinking those that would run the option being pissed if they were a second off. For it to be voted out it seems people with their own agendas have lead to no change. There are quite a few influential people that can dictate where the sport goes, and I don't think that is well for the sport. I think that is a shame. Thanx Brendan for your reply. I understand what the mega buck guys have spent on development and performance and that will never change. They will still chase every performance way of doing what they do, because they have the funds to do so. This is not a new issue. They would even find a way of tweaking the crate engine! I almost deleted this post (prior to posting) as my opinion means absolutely nothing. I would like to see speedway go forward but it is being held back by an out of date constitution and too many personal agendas As a previous most weekend spectator (travelling far and wide )I am now doing less than half doz meets a season. Or you could just build a Toyota that will be the same as a crate motor for the same price… you know more than me. Spread the word! |
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daleh
New Member
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Post by daleh on Apr 5, 2024 22:04:26 GMT 12
you know more than me. Spread the word! What you also need to understand is running costs. With all associated cost you’re going to spend 10K a year min just to run club and regional events. If the cost between crate and a basic Nissan/Toyota makes a difference then resource wise your going to struggle regardless. Allowing a crate in doesn’t really help when you consider total resources required. Any given night you could loose 2+ tyres/shocks/wheels etc; smash the diff or gearbox etc and out for season etc. |
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