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Post by Jamo on Mar 16, 2009 8:58:28 GMT 12
Been given this a bit of thought for some time.
SNZ require all drivers to act in a professional manner at all times and keep their cars to a high standard of appearance. They have dedicated people to make sure that the rules are being followed and even have a roving vehicle inspector to do spot checks on vehicles to make sure that no one is cheating. In short alot of effort is put into this area of the sport to make sure we have an even playing field and the drivers are watched closely on the track to make sure that no one is being either over aggressive or blatantly cheating.
Why is the same effort not put in at the start of the season in making sure that the tracks awarded SNZ titles have track conditions suitable enough to give the crowd and drivers a decent event??
This is not just a dig at Wellington on Saturday but I have been to so many meetings over the years, not just in the mods but as a spectator as well with regard other open wheel classes and saloons, only to see sub standard track preparation ruin the event and have too big a say on the final result.
Track conditions will always play a part in determining the final result but the question is how big a part should it play? 5%? 10%? 50%?
Tracks have to be awarded SNZ events, and although there is lip service paid to satisfactory track conditions are considered in awarding championships, is this in reality ever considered? I would say no.
The drivers are being asked to become more and more professional about the image they uphold and SNZ are very quick to come down hard on guys who get over excited and cause carnage on the track but the question needs to be asked, would these guys be so aggressive and impatient if track conditions they were served up were more conducive to fair open racing? Get everyone fighting over a one lane track and you will get problems. Is that really the drivers fault???
When SNZ do their track licensing function at the start of the season why cant more emphasis be put on making sure that the track conditions are suitable to allow for fair, decent racing in the classes that the tracks are asking for a license to run?? Why can't we have a track specialist (similar to roving vehicle checker) who's main function is to visit tracks randomly during the season reporting back to the board on the track conditions being served up to its drivers? Do this and you have a starting point to consider when tracks put their hands up to run events. Talk to the drivers and get their thoughts. Get the right person and they may even be able to work with the tracks to get their racing surfaces improved!
Part of the reason the sport is waning in crowd support is down to the quality of the event being served up, put an event on a track where passing is impossible and the crowd only get to watch guys playing follow the leader! This is doing nothing for the sport. Even worse, give the drivers a track where they need to take massive risks to driver and car just to make a pass and you have guys who lose heart from unnecessary damage costs and ultimately give the sport away.
Professionalism starts at the top and unless the tracks start serving up better conditions for the drivers, you can't expect the drivers to put on a decent show. Put up sub standard track conditions and drivers may not come back. The costs to run around the country supporting events incurred by all drivers, in all classes, is massive so to continually turn up at major events where sub standard conditions dictate final results is massively unfair to the competitors who are expected to perform for the crowd.
Maybe it is viewed as a low priority by SNZ due to the fact that most people involved in SNZ have a contact class background and the sport in general has a heavy reliance on these contact classes? After all track conditions to them are not critical as they can legitimately hit vehicles out of the way. Wonder how long it would be before they started complaining about track conditions if they had to play by the same rules as the saloon and open wheel classes??
Really is time for SNZ to stand up and demand more from their licensed tracks. On tack conditions should not be viewed as a minor priority, they should be viewed as the top priority if they are serious about getting bums on seats and getting drivers to support major events away from home.
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Post by BarryB on Mar 16, 2009 10:33:14 GMT 12
Jamo, the AGM this June will be the first time a new criteria is used for the allocation of NZ titles. Track is one of many things on the list. It doesn't cover everything you say, and is ONLY for New Zealand titles at this point in time, but at least it's a start.
As for your contact-class comment;
President: Peter Kuriger - first car was a Modified, and has built many top Saloons amongst other things. Son races a Minisprint.
Director: Willie Kay - Open Wheel fan to the hilt
Director: Wayne Andrews - former Super Saloon racer
Director: Dennis Bolt - current Super Saloon racer
Vice President: Grant Graham - Open Wheel background
Director: Ricky Boulton - current Superstock driver
Director: Marty Jones - former Stockcar driver
You could argue the contact classes are under represnted, especially considering how many compete in those classes.
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Post by Jamo on Mar 16, 2009 10:49:09 GMT 12
Jamo, the AGM this June will be the first time a new criteria is used for the allocation of NZ titles. Track is one of many things on the list. It doesn't cover everything you say, and is ONLY for New Zealand titles at this point in time, but at least it's a start. As for your contact-class comment; President: Peter Kuriger - first car was a Modified, and has built many top Saloons amongst other things. Son races a Minisprint. Director: Willie Kay - Open Wheel fan to the hilt Director: Wayne Andrews - former Super Saloon racer Director: Dennis Bolt - current Super Saloon racer Vice President: Grant Graham - Open Wheel background Director: Ricky Boulton - current Superstock driver Director: Marty Jones - former Stockcar driver You could argue the contact classes are under represnted, especially considering how many compete in those classes. So as we sit here today Barry do you believe that enough consideration is given to the likely track conditions competitors will face when titles are being allocated or do you think up to now it hasn't been a factor? Even with the new criteria you are suggesting how much REAL importance is going to be given to the track conditions?? Drivers requirements will take a back seat to the other criteria I believe. I suppose the reality of that will be visible by who gets awarded what at conference. Next years Mod GP in Greymouth anyone?? Do you think that clubs themselves put enough emphasis on their track conditions or maybe they think it is a low priority? Maybe I am wrong, maybe people are happy with what is being dished up at most venues??? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2009 11:51:12 GMT 12
Track prep was covered in this thread a while back. Its a global problem even for professional WoO sprint car pilots. Over the last two seasons Te Marua track prep by McPhee has received praise from the international sprinter pilots, but sadly the two most recent efforts weren't to the same standard for some reason. I felt sorry Jamo for your man Fox in the first heat, but after the grader effort heats 2 & 3 had more passing lanes. The reality is that most NZ tracks are built for stock cars not open wheelers. Good luck with your suggestion for SNZ to do more. In the mean time perhaps you could also go in another direction - namely contact Brent Harris at Ohakea with a view to set up your own annual mod meeting on a private open wheeler track under your own terms and conditions. I'm sure someone like Fox would relish the opportunity to show case his skills on this wide track just like Skinny did last Easter because he had the room to weave in close and out wide where necessary to get past the slower traffic. |
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Post by scw on Mar 16, 2009 12:00:27 GMT 12
Here is another one to consider. Sunday 15th March i was at KihiKihi Speedway watching sprintcars for the first time there. I witnessed a pretty big crash where Skinny Colson rode a right rear going into turn one and coming to a rest in turn middle of 1 & 2. Officials brought out the yellow and were going to continue on the yellow till they got car off track. It was clear as day to see Colson's head collapse forward and not move. It took crew members on infield along with Ron Salter (who picked up a red flag on infield) to bring this to thier attention. Now also, how can they run a meeting with NO CRASH CREW. All they had was a flag man in the middle of turn 1&2 and then 3&4 and another on the back straight. So in total, they had 4-6 max to cover the whole track. They should have at least 4 or 5 people at each end of track to quickly respond. How are they going to get on next season with NZ Superstock there??
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Post by The Observer on Mar 16, 2009 12:37:01 GMT 12
A couple of quick comments.
Greymouth has a very good track for open wheelers - big corners, and lots of clay that they get a heap of drive out of.
I overheard our supersaloon director moaning about cromwell having too much grip at this years title. He beleived the track should be left alone to go slick so they could then start "the real racing".
I had no idea what he was talking about, so I'm assuming I've missed a very important part of the converation.
I always thought a drivey track was condusive to real racing.
anwyay
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Post by BarryB on Mar 16, 2009 13:33:55 GMT 12
So as we sit here today Barry do you believe that enough consideration is given to the likely track conditions competitors will face when titles are being allocated or do you think up to now it hasn't been a factor? Even with the new criteria you are suggesting how much REAL importance is going to be given to the track conditions?? Drivers requirements will take a back seat to the other criteria I believe. I suppose the reality of that will be visible by who gets awarded what at conference. Next years Mod GP in Greymouth anyone?? Do you think that clubs themselves put enough emphasis on their track conditions or maybe they think it is a low priority? Maybe I am wrong, maybe people are happy with what is being dished up at most venues??? As we sit here today? No, I don't think track conditions have really featured in title allocations before, certainly not as highly as they should anyway? Do I think the new criteria (for titles to be raced in 2010/2011) go far enough? No, which is why I said "at least it's a start". I would certainly relish the thought of draughting a list of which New Zealand titles could be staged at which tracks and for which classes. Problem is Jamo, you can't take every SNZ title (NZ, NI, SI and GP) to only 2 or 3 tracks, it would kill the sport stone dead in many areas. My range would spread further than the current proposed criteria does...but would always be up for review. But we can showcase our best, and we should do too, and that's our New Zealand championships. Try interesting Mainstream TV in covering our NZ titles next summer. "Where are your 12 major events?" they would ask. "Invercargill (2), Christchurch (2), Stratford, Cromwell, Huntly, the Mount, Kihikihi, Wanganui, Wellington and Palmerston North sir" would come the reply. "Nothing in Auckland?" "No sir. Not next season. Our most popular events have been sent to Kihikihi, Wanganui, Huntly, Stratford and Cromwell sir"'. "Come back when your sport grows up". "Yes sir................" Now the above is not meant to be an insult to any of those clubs at all, as all have shown themselves up to the task of running good (or better) events in recent years, but you might get my drift? Others may not however........... |
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Post by Jamo on Mar 16, 2009 15:42:12 GMT 12
Greymouth has a very good track for open wheelers - big corners, and lots of clay that they get a heap of drive out of. The comment re Greymouth was not targeted as such about track conditions more the fact that for them to be awarded a title event like a NZGP means that little thought goes into what is best for the class and it's drivers. Now this thread is not a bashing thread about any track but the reality is that if Greymouth gets awarded the NZGP (not even sure they are interested to be honest) how is this good for the class? How many drivers are going to make the trip to do this meeting? They are miles away from the tracks with the competitor numbers, they likely will have very little money to offer the class in way of prizemoney and more than likely they will be relying on the drivers to support it riding on the coat tails of the NZ's at Chch next season. How many of the NI guys can afford to hang around for an extra week with accommodation costs etc to run in a meeting across the other side of the Island? People are complaining about the lack of cars in Wellington for last weekends GP. Be a safe bet that if the event had been in Greymouth the field would have been even smaller. Fair to say that if the event had been at Auckland the field would most likely have been closer to 20! Track conditions are one of the criteria that needs to be considered when awarding events to tracks, this is the one this thread is about. Common sense tells you that there are alot of other criteria that need to be considered when dishing out title events and there is no doubt that location, local competitor numbers and prizemoney have to all be considered as well. At the moment it seems that SNZ give little thought as to what is involved with regard drivers supporting these meetings when they award them , they automatically assume that the drivers will go anywhere with no regard to costs. This has resulted in reduced numbers at a number of SNZ events in all classes this season. |
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Post by Jamo on Mar 16, 2009 15:54:13 GMT 12
So as we sit here today Barry do you believe that enough consideration is given to the likely track conditions competitors will face when titles are being allocated or do you think up to now it hasn't been a factor? Even with the new criteria you are suggesting how much REAL importance is going to be given to the track conditions?? Drivers requirements will take a back seat to the other criteria I believe. I suppose the reality of that will be visible by who gets awarded what at conference. Next years Mod GP in Greymouth anyone?? Do you think that clubs themselves put enough emphasis on their track conditions or maybe they think it is a low priority? Maybe I am wrong, maybe people are happy with what is being dished up at most venues??? As we sit here today? No, I don't think track conditions have really featured in title allocations before, certainly not as highly as they should anyway? Do I think the new criteria (for titles to be raced in 2010/2011) go far enough? No, which is why I said "at least it's a start". I would certainly relish the thought of draughting a list of which New Zealand titles could be staged at which tracks and for which classes. Problem is Jamo, you can't take every SNZ title (NZ, NI, SI and GP) to only 2 or 3 tracks, it would kill the sport stone dead in many areas. My range would spread further than the current proposed criteria does...but would always be up for review. But we can showcase our best, and we should do too, and that's our New Zealand championships. Try interesting Mainstream TV in covering our NZ titles next summer. "Where are your 12 major events?" they would ask. "Invercargill (2), Christchurch (2), Stratford, Cromwell, Huntly, the Mount, Kihikihi, Wanganui, Wellington and Palmerston North sir" would come the reply. "Nothing in Auckland?" "No sir. Not next season. Our most popular events have been sent to Kihikihi, Wanganui, Huntly, Stratford and Cromwell sir"'. "Come back when your sport grows up". "Yes sir................" Now the above is not meant to be an insult to any of those clubs at all, as all have shown themselves up to the task of running good (or better) events in recent years, but you might get my drift? Others may not however........... Most of what you say I agree with and you are 100% accurate with your mock communication with a TV person. I disagree that having SNZ events limited to 2-3 tracks would kill the sport in some classes though. For a long time midgets and sprintcar champs were only ever held in 1-2 cities and it hasn't hurt them! Sprintcars went away from the tried and true venues this year and was widely panned by all in sundry. Mods could easily make do with running all their SNZ events at 2-3 tracks and it is bloody obvious to me who those 2-3 tracks should be (1 of which has recognised they need to vastly improve their tracks conditions and have plans to do so). Tracks that don't have the numbers, don't have the club support and don't have a track suitable for the class should not be getting SNZ events.... simple as that! Personally believe it would not hurt car numbers at all and to be honest I could only see it having a positive impact on driver numbers and, more importantly, the racing quality given to the fans. I agree it would not work for all classes though. |
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Post by Jamo on Mar 16, 2009 16:18:34 GMT 12
Track prep was covered in this thread a while back. Its a global problem even for professional WoO sprint car pilots. Over the last two seasons Te Marua track prep by McPhee has received praise from the international sprinter pilots, but sadly the two most recent efforts weren't to the same standard for some reason. I felt sorry Jamo for your man Fox in the first heat, but after the grader effort heats 2 & 3 had more passing lanes. The reality is that most NZ tracks are built for stock cars not open wheelers. Good luck with your suggestion for SNZ to do more. In the mean time perhaps you could also go in another direction - namely contact Brent Harris at Ohakea with a view to set up your own annual mod meeting on a private open wheeler track under your own terms and conditions. I'm sure someone like Fox would relish the opportunity to show case his skills on this wide track just like Skinny did last Easter because he had the room to weave in close and out wide where necessary to get past the slower traffic. This thread is not specific to Wellington on Saturday but the event was influenced to heavily by the track conditions in heat 1. The cars in the rear grids for this heat were at an instant disadvantage there is no denying that. The grading that got done for heats 2 and 3 resulted in all material being removed meaning by feature time the main event was a one lane follow the leader event, not great as a spectacle for the crowd. Really this is more serious than a one off event. In the last 3-4 years a lot of meetings in our class have been run on sub standard racing surfaces (even Auckland dished up a shocker at the NZ champs up here a few years back). I am no expert on track preparation, and don't profess to be so, but it looks plainly obvious to me that clubs in general are not taking their responsibilities serious enough when they go for events. They tend to get lost in the "chance to make money" mentality that goes with events and give no thought as to what they need to do to make sure the events will be a success. Like I said, in some classes, like the contact classes, the track conditions are not critical as they can use their bumpers. In classes like ours you can't so the guys and girls deserve and should start demanding that SNZ make sure that clubs are committed to giving the guys the best surface possible before awarding events. This can only be done by monitoring what is being dished up in the year prior to events being awarded and then having the clubs outline what they intend to do to fix any issues raised if they are awarded the event. If they are not committed to doing this for the drivers then they shouldn't have the event... pretty simple. This should be the same for sprintcars, midgets, TQ's, saloons and super saloons! |
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mod84c
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Post by mod84c on Mar 16, 2009 16:24:41 GMT 12
I disagree with you Jamo on having title's at only 2 -3 tracks won't hurt the class. I've raced in a class were the title was only ran at two tracks and it was horrible. Eventually the class died not only because of this but it made winning the title mean less. You were basically racing against the same people you would on a club night, what's the fun and chellange in that??? I agree that clubs should be graded but at the end of the day the tracks I've ran in titles are always different (usually slick) and more difficult to keep right than normal nights. We need titles to go to other tracks to promote the class keep people interested in the class or it will die, even clubs will die because no one will go to them and race, numbers in all classes will die and they will become black tracks. I enjoy going away and racing when and where we can its part of racing speedway.
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Post by BarryB on Mar 16, 2009 16:27:09 GMT 12
Two things to remember Jamo;
1; SPANZ allocates the titles as things currently stand, not SNZ
2; I still believe running ALL SNZ titles at 2 or 3 tracks IS bad for a class. Sprintcars were a little different in that they, until recently again, only raced at 2-3 tracks. That has recently changed, and they're seen around the country more than ever, contracted to tracks that have never raced them before. Many tracks see an increase in numbers in the year leading up to an NZ title (not being Modified specific here), and that has to be good for any class. If all - or even most - of the titles were held in Auckland because they currently have the most cars, soon they would have ALL the cars, and the class would be demoted to regional status.
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Post by thunderbird1 on Mar 16, 2009 16:37:56 GMT 12
There is a need to get our favourite sport in front of as many people as possible. The main problem is not only track width and conditions but the whole infrastructure i.e. the ability to get good accommodation, population base, financial abilities etc. Major titles should be kept to main population areas UNTIL other tracks i.e. smaller provincial towns have proven themselves to be able to offer the complete package. This could be done by using a seeding system, starting off with one of the travelling series i.e. War of the Wings Sprintcars to use a southern perspective, then an Island championship, then GP and only after they have proved successful should a National title be looked at. This has the ability to cover ALL classes of speedway and cover all of NZ.  |
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ChrisM
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 17, 2009 10:47:49 GMT 12
Linking back to the title of this thread....
Does anyone understand why SPANZ actually exists?
I have been to one conference and still don't understand how it works. The old "rotational" system for title allocation seems to be falling out of favour and if titles get allocated on the basis of who can pay most prizemoney you will quickly see all the big events going to the main tracks coz they get the crowds through the gate. Of course the old rotational system allowed tracks to get away with paying drivers peanuts for attending major titles on the basis they would attend for the glory alone.
As far as I can see SNZ should control allocation of NZ Titles.
On your original post Jamo - I think you are being a bit tough on track prep. Lots of the big US meetings are now held on very slick tracks - Jamie will just need to develop a better slick setup!!
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Post by Aaron Drever on Mar 17, 2009 11:01:36 GMT 12
I personally believe that the BIG CHAMPS should be at the BIG VENUES ala the NRL GRAND FINAL..... now that would not be held at Campbelltown would it? No!
If we are going to move foward then thats how we have to do it! If a little club run track wants to get the big title then they need to either:
a - work with a private entity to upgrade the venue or b - work with their local council, rugby union etc to create one decent venue to run from
or...... they can be content with running Island Titles and GP's
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Post by MadMarty13B on Mar 17, 2009 11:16:21 GMT 12
SO WP should not have had the NI Superstocks or the teams nationals or smashfest! (as smashfest is promoted more and above what the NI and teams were promoted both together so smashfest must be big!) How can smaller clubs survive and indeed progress without some sort of big revenue now and then? Certainly it does have merit but there has to be a balance.
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Post by Jamo on Mar 17, 2009 12:01:59 GMT 12
On your original post Jamo - I think you are being a bit tough on track prep. Lots of the big US meetings are now held on very slick tracks - Jamie will just need to develop a better slick setup!! Not being tough on track prep at all. Like I said this thread is not meant as a bash on Wellington, it is a thread about the track prep in general being dished up for title events at all tracks. I stand by my comment that track condition should not be the deciding factor in a championship. It was on Saturday as heat one was totally un-raceable giving the guys off the front in this heat a massive advantage at night end. This has been the case at numerous meetings all over the country and I think the drivers deserve better  as for slick set-up, we have that under control and we are pretty happy with how we go in the slick now. We prefer drivier surfaces but can foot it with the best of them on a slick surface, all we ask for is for consistency over the night. You can not deny that racing on a track that offers drive is by far and away a better spectacle than what you get on a slick surface with little to no passing... no matter how good your set-up! |
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Post by DTM1 on Mar 17, 2009 17:26:23 GMT 12
How can smaller clubs survive and indeed progress without some sort of big revenue now and then? Certainly it does have merit but there has to be a balance. Balance is obviously an important consideration,but when the cost of striking that balance is at the detriment of the sport what does it ultimately achieve?. Nothing. |
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Post by scrapper on Mar 20, 2009 22:43:32 GMT 12
I do agree that track conditions have a big influence on outcomes not just on the big nites but any nite, come to think of it grid draws have an even bigger part, but hey thats the way the cooky crumbles isn't it. The way I see it every competitor is on the same track and you do the best you can as a team to get the outcome you want. I agree with Aaron that the big title that is the NZ champs should be held at the bigger venues though. When it comes to venue, accomodation and track facilities I would also include Strattford speedway and the champs there this year showed they could handle it as well. As did the previous one there. Some people say the track conditions are poor there too, I say the track has no drive and slick is an understatement, but at least it is concistantly the same, as a team you handle it or you don't, every one has the same conditions to deal with and at least it seems to open it up for the less powerfull machinery as well as horsepower is not as big an issue. And Jamo i'm a little surprised as you guys are probably the most experienced team there besides maybe Noonan and have seen it all before and have the experience to deal with track conditions better then most; an other advantage???
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