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Post by SKDKNG on Mar 25, 2015 23:54:10 GMT 12
Can anyone explain the point of "The prime cause of red light removal" rule?
I've been thinking about this all week.. I thought the idea was to have cars racing around the track, not sitting on the infield!!
As a relatively new driver (2nd season) it annoys me to get pulled from the track every time I spin or stall without a decent chance to fire back up by a way to quickly turned on red light.
I have watched seasoned drivers sit in dangerous positions for laps on end without the Reds coming on but feel as a "no one" the Reds are whipped on instantly and I'm scooped off onto the infield quick as..
Huntly are very good at keeping car numbers on track, even turning round cars to face the right way for restarts ect, so why do other tracks remove a running car from a race when they don't have to?
Is there any reason why I should not put foward a remit to change this rule? Don't know why it was brought in in the first place....
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Post by boner87 on Mar 26, 2015 17:50:02 GMT 12
Have you asked a senior ref at your track? Possibly being a "newbie" they may be a little quicker to respond? Are you putting your thumbs up when the infeild officials are looking at you??
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Mar 26, 2015 19:45:15 GMT 12
As a spectator and someone who tends to question the rational of decisions/outcomes at times (constantly) I too have often wondered why a competitor is sent infield.
Doesn't appear to achieve a darn thing except frustrate the competitor, crew, supporters and sponsors, and depletes the racing spectacle for me!
Time and time again I've watched as a red light is applied before some young and enthusiastic ministock competitor has had a chance to fire up and get moving. Racing is delayed as someone is sent off and the field repositioned.
Why does this happen? What is the purpose? What is the rule trying to achieve?
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Post by Speedway Central (David) on Mar 26, 2015 20:00:16 GMT 12
May be drivers need there own Green light to flick on in that situation, to say they all good.
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goat
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Posts: 129
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Post by goat on Mar 26, 2015 20:56:38 GMT 12
From where i was sitting the red light was not put on for you but the car on the straight in front of the grandstand that got hit.
every one where I was sitting was surprised when you got taken off.
Putting out your small fire is not classed as out side assistance. ( It was fuel in exhaust )
Chin up and race on as you have a good looking car there.
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Post by Skorp on Mar 27, 2015 6:46:19 GMT 12
From where i was sitting the red light was not put on for you but the car on the straight in front of the grandstand that got hit. every one where I was sitting was surprised when you got taken off. Putting out your small fire is not classed as out side assistance. ( It was fuel in exhaust ) Chin up and race on as you have a good looking car there. IF an extinguisher was used, then yes that is now classed as outside assistance. There was a rule change a couple of seasons ago after a certain 1NZ Supperstock driver was rolled at the teams champs and the fire crew used an extinguisher to put out a fire after he was rolled, then allowed to continue racing. |
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Post by mudman on Mar 27, 2015 9:46:50 GMT 12
The officials are darned if they do darned of they don't. I think it all stems from when Scott miers got full noised in palmy a few years back on a restart. If they had flicked the reds on then his car fired up he would've been salty about being removed to quickly. So its a gentle balance the officials are playing with. I believe its fellow competitors responsibility to look after each other avoid dead cars at all cost if they do that a dead car 'should' be relatively safe. Rotorua usually give cars 1 lap Huntly let it run till thumbs down are put out. Both are good but also have their down sides. Officials are wrong no matter what these days  ? |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Mar 27, 2015 13:02:31 GMT 12
Can anyone explain the point of "The prime cause of red light removal" rule? I've been thinking about this all week.. I thought the idea was to have cars racing around the track, not sitting on the infield!!..... Huntly are very good at keeping car numbers on track, even turning round cars to face the right way for restarts ect, so why do other tracks remove a running car from a race when they don't have to? Is there any reason why I should not put foward a remit to change this rule? Don't know why it was brought in in the first place....
Why can nobody provide an answer to the questions SDKNG raises, the reason for the post?
What is achieved by putting cars quite capable of racing (ministocks included) on the infield?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 15:33:19 GMT 12
Can anyone explain the point of "The prime cause of red light removal" rule? I've been thinking about this all week.. I thought the idea was to have cars racing around the track, not sitting on the infield!!..... Huntly are very good at keeping car numbers on track, even turning round cars to face the right way for restarts ect, so why do other tracks remove a running car from a race when they don't have to? Is there any reason why I should not put foward a remit to change this rule? Don't know why it was brought in in the first place....
Why can nobody provide an answer to the questions SDKNG raises, the reason for the post?
What is achieved by putting cars quite capable of racing (ministocks included) on the infield?
I'll give it a go. Im not a ref or even an infield dude anymore so this is purely my own thoughts. First off - I believe that most of the time it boils down to a safety matter, cars with fires etc - how do to tell its safe for them to carry on? things like that... also - being on the infield after a crash etc means that the ambo staff can give you a very quick checkover before taking things further in the ambulance later on. Second - In terms of how good huntly is at keeping cars on the track - alot of our infield staff and crew are either racers themselves or have been at some point - actually you would be VERY hard pressed to find someone on the infield at huntly with only minimal or basic knowledge of cars. I would hope its the same at all tracks, but sometimes watching certain crews dealing with cars I do wonder. Huntly crews also get an ear bashing from Red if they are pulling cars for no good reason. LOL - actually they get an ear bashing for taking too long, taking risks, damaging cars needlessly and not paying attention when on the infield as well. You will notice that with stock cars and superstocks, the Huntly crew is watching for the stopped cars and regularly checking they are ok where they are - if they see that thumb its reds on and cars off. same goes in the tower - and if a stopped car gets hit, its an almost instant red light. Finally it could also be a promoter issue - some promoters are more OSH consious than others, some just want the night to happen within a certain time frame, some are just prefferential to certain classes - prefferring to spend more time makeing the midgets look good than the stock cars etc. |
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Post by percy on Mar 27, 2015 21:55:45 GMT 12
I've been thinking about this one over the past couple of days. It's great that a rule we all take for granted has been challenged and it's really got me thinking.
I can see merit in what your are trying to achieve. Competitors put in hours every week to get their cars to the track. It must be incredibly frustrating to be pulled off under a red only to fire up moments later. From a spectators perspective we want to see more cars on track.
If you are going to submit a remit I strongly suggest defining some parameters. Does the driver have to refire before the red light, 10 seconds afterwards, 10 seconds after the first infield official reaches the car? If you set some parameters delegates will have a better chance of understanding what you are trying to achieve.
On the other hand I don't think it's particularly fair to the other competitors. I don't see why should the rest of the field have to stop racing so one driver can refire (or not). It's outside assistance for the stricken competitor to have the rest of the field cease racing.
I also fear it could lead to some ridiculous situations. For instance a driver may spin and stall more than once during a race only to refire time after time under the reds. I also fear that stalled drivers may try to bring on the reds as fast as they can to stop the field as soon as possible. There wouldn't be much downside to sticking the thumbs down to bring on the reds as fast as possible only to refire and resume racing under the reds.
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Post by Rusty on Mar 27, 2015 22:40:31 GMT 12
Thumbs down is only to be used by an injured driver isnt.
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Post by bikeboy on Mar 28, 2015 6:45:54 GMT 12
I've been thinking about this one over the past couple of days. It's great that a rule we all take for granted has been challenged and it's really got me thinking. I can see merit in what your are trying to achieve. Competitors put in hours every week to get their cars to the track. It must be incredibly frustrating to be pulled off under a red only to fire up moments later. From a spectators perspective we want to see more cars on track. If you are going to submit a remit I strongly suggest defining some parameters. Does the driver have to refire before the red light, 10 seconds afterwards, 10 seconds after the first infield official reaches the car? If you set some parameters delegates will have a better chance of understanding what you are trying to achieve. On the other hand I don't think it's particularly fair to the other competitors. I don't see why should the rest of the field have to stop racing so one driver can refire (or not). It's outside assistance for the stricken competitor to have the rest of the field cease racing. I also fear it could lead to some ridiculous situations. For instance a driver may spin and stall more than once during a race only to refire time after time under the reds. I also fear that stalled drivers may try to bring on the reds as fast as they can to stop the field as soon as possible. There wouldn't be much downside to sticking the thumbs down to bring on the reds as fast as possible only to refire and resume racing under the reds. i agree with you Percy, to try and make a rule to suit every problem is too hard, but i think there should be a difference to a club night and a championship, for a Rookie driver, track time is king to getting better, and for the show, if you have small driver numbers, taking them off the track is not great either, |
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Post by Skorp on Mar 28, 2015 8:04:08 GMT 12
There wouldn't be much downside to sticking the thumbs down to bring on the reds as fast as possible only to refire and resume racing under the reds. It's my understanding that showing thumbs down means you are off to the infield, no ifs buts or maybes, but I could be wrong there. |
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Post by SKDKNG on Mar 28, 2015 8:48:22 GMT 12
Thanks these are exactly the positives /negatives I was after before rushing into a remit and possibly wasting people's time.
bikeboy is right track time is key and I was just wondering why in say a midget or saloon car if you spin and the reds come on you get put rear of field to continue on but not in our classes..
No body wants to be hit like miners and I can understand the whole how quick do we flick the reds for safety, it's not rejoining I don't understand.
Rhodesta good points but I've never been given a safety check, jus a get off haha
Thanks goat, was a bit gutted at the time about bein pulled on sat but the more I thought about it the more I wanted clarity about why this happens (not jus my incident, as there was a fire extinguisher used so prob was outside assistance even tho technically they didn't touch my car, they put out a pool of gas under my mufflers haha)
Couldn't a quick "you all good to go" check be made then a refs decision of continue or not be made instead of the compulsory pull?
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Post by graemeh on Mar 28, 2015 9:45:28 GMT 12
There seems to be two rules that cover the situation you mention. Both copied below. It would seem they are getting confused and joined together by referees.
A red light for a stationary vehicle shouldn't automatically mean the vehicle is taken off. The "Stationary Vehicle" rule says "can be removed" not "must be removed" but when you look at the "Emergency Stoppage rule" it states "When a vehicle is the primary cause of an emergency stoppage, it is not eligible to restart"
So it is unfortunately a bit of a grey area dependant on a referees opinion which way he sees the situation. Someone with time on their hands could tidy it up but in all probability an element of Referee judgement will come into play.
EMERGENCY STOPPAGE
R12-3-35 If an incident has occurred that the Referee deems dangerous, the
race will be stopped.
R12-3-36 All vehicles must stop immediately and remain stationary except
under instruction from an Official.
R12-3-37 There will be no deliberate contact between vehicles during an
emergency stoppage.
R12-3-38 When a vehicle is the primary cause of an emergency stoppage, it is
not eligible to restart. Exception: Rollovers, see R12-3-47 below.
Note: The intent here is that a stray wheel or wing is not part of a
vehicle.
R12-3-39 When the track is cleared for a restart, the red light will be turned
off to indicate a start is imminent (approx 5 seconds).
R12-3-40 The race continues from a clutch start when the green lights/flag
are displayed.
STATIONARY VEHICLES
R12-3-20 A vehicle that is stationary for any reason can be removed by the
Referee activating the red lights.
R12-3-21 Competitors in stationary vehicles must remain in their seat with
belts on until they are permitted to get out by an Official. This does
not apply in the case of fire.
R12-3-22 Stationary vehicles are to be avoided where possible.
R12-3-23 Competitors cannot force or steer other vehicles into stationary
vehicles.
R12-3-24 Attacking from a stationary position or hitting a stationary car is not
permitted.
R12-3-25 Competitors waiting for another vehicle must be moving (however
slowly) at all times, i.e. you can’t stop and wait.
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Post by beatle on Apr 7, 2015 21:27:15 GMT 12
I'm glad this has been on board as this past weekend both myself and Randal have been screwed over by a ref being too keen on his red button. A simple "may be removed" inserted in the right place will allow a ref who has been premature to simply say "sorry guys pulled red a bit quick so we going to restart the race".Refs are able to do this, I have seen it done it's called common sense and a ref with balls would do it to remedy a situation he/she has caused.It is understandable refs are a lot more cautious nowadays but Stockcars spin and stall or get damaged and move erratically and you just can't put on the red while a car has barely even stopped moving or is wobbling on a bent shock.Better to leave it out there entertaining than taking a car off the track.
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