Yard
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Posts: 126
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Post by Yard on Aug 1, 2015 18:42:07 GMT 12
Actually there DOES seem to be a double standard here - whats the point of promoting driver safety to such a degree when the infield staff are effectively able to ignore to rules all drivers and thier crew have to adhere to? Do the fire crews, infield staff or flag wavers have to wear flame proof undies? answer: no. Do safetey crew or infield staff have to wear protective clothing including helmets? answer: no. Do the drivers of the pace vehicle, tow trucks/tractors, water truck or push trucks have to wear flame retardent clothing? answer: no. Are the above drivers of pace vehicles wearing a helmet and neckbrace of comparable safety standards to the drivers behind him/her? answer: no. If this is required of a driver or crew member of a driver, including those who are not part of the race itself, why is it not required for safety crew, towies, tractor drivers, push truck driver or pace truck driver? What about the water truck driver? He or she makes laps of the track not just during but before the meeting too... so following that line of thought what about the track packers? is there a safety standard being applied to them so that snz can say "we have the safety of all people involved in this sport at heart"? answer: no. Why do the CREW of a race team have safety standards higher then that of the infield staff? I have been on the infield before and have sometimes had cars spinning out of control towards me - what was the stafety standard I had to adhere to? answer: a high visibility vest. Thats a great help for the driver who was out of control as he headed towards me = he could at least see he who he was going to hit. Wouldnt help either of us but at least he could see me. someones gonna come on here and say "a helmet would restrict the peripheral vision of safety crew and make things less safe for them" Im sure of it - so lets think about this, is a helmet going to stop the crew member who got hit from behind from seeing the car that hit him? Where do we start? and where do we stop? good questions - the need to be asked too. Yes a good point here. But !!! You "may have" open a can of worms here. By suggesting this you may have put the price of club membership up. Why. What volunteer will be going out and buying helmets balaclavas fire retardant suits and underwear. A lot of you are complaining about the cost now. Murray you may have to wait another season before you get new rims if this is the case. Lol. But yes there is some very good points made. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 21:32:07 GMT 12
Actually there DOES seem to be a double standard here - whats the point of promoting driver safety to such a degree when the infield staff are effectively able to ignore to rules all drivers and thier crew have to adhere to? Do the fire crews, infield staff or flag wavers have to wear flame proof undies? answer: no. Do safetey crew or infield staff have to wear protective clothing including helmets? answer: no. Do the drivers of the pace vehicle, tow trucks/tractors, water truck or push trucks have to wear flame retardent clothing? answer: no. Are the above drivers of pace vehicles wearing a helmet and neckbrace of comparable safety standards to the drivers behind him/her? answer: no. If this is required of a driver or crew member of a driver, including those who are not part of the race itself, why is it not required for safety crew, towies, tractor drivers, push truck driver or pace truck driver? What about the water truck driver? He or she makes laps of the track not just during but before the meeting too... so following that line of thought what about the track packers? is there a safety standard being applied to them so that snz can say "we have the safety of all people involved in this sport at heart"? answer: no. Why do the CREW of a race team have safety standards higher then that of the infield staff? I have been on the infield before and have sometimes had cars spinning out of control towards me - what was the stafety standard I had to adhere to? answer: a high visibility vest. Thats a great help for the driver who was out of control as he headed towards me = he could at least see he who he was going to hit. Wouldnt help either of us but at least he could see me. someones gonna come on here and say "a helmet would restrict the peripheral vision of safety crew and make things less safe for them" Im sure of it - so lets think about this, is a helmet going to stop the crew member who got hit from behind from seeing the car that hit him? Where do we start? and where do we stop? good questions - the need to be asked too. Yes a good point here. But !!! You "may have" open a can of worms here. By suggesting this you may have put the price of club membership up. Why. What volunteer will be going out and buying helmets balaclavas fire retardant suits and underwear. A lot of you are complaining about the cost now. Murray you may have to wait another season before you get new rims if this is the case. Lol. But yes there is some very good points made. Yup, and how many people would it affect if it was to be suddenly made a national rule that anyone who drives anything on the track surface or infield has to have a helmet? funny - so far its been only drivers complaining but I bet that would suddenly change. |
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Post by midway on Aug 1, 2015 22:12:33 GMT 12
May be a trip over to the Springs one night during the next season and ask Phillip Hansen of the fire crew perhaps to show you how they prepare themselves for a nights racing ,it stands out from the rest ,in more ways than just the slap happy nonsense that has gone on for too long .
Unfortunately we as a sport need to move with the times ,now it has bitten a few in the butt simply because SNZ has to adopt a policy that works to improve all types of safety ,and therefore if seen not being carried out in the true spirit of the sport be firstly fined by the club to recoup costs involved in out laying new gear .
Rules are rules if broken they need to be addressed accordingly on the spot or if not at the first meeting between the promotion and the club .
There is always a cost ,but why should it be some persons loved one at the end of the day ...
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Post by Go Slideways on Aug 1, 2015 23:08:53 GMT 12
The fire crews at Palmy are very organized too, they are always the first response and are kitted up in all the right gear including balaclava's and gloves and multi layer overalls even on very hot days/evenings in summer. Fire freaks me out but I bet drivers are a bit more reassured having these guys on hand when things go wrong.  free upload pictures image hosting |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Aug 1, 2015 23:16:56 GMT 12
I can 'hear' a few injuries from those who choose NOT to wear undies under their two layer, thinking nickerless will be better for that last minute nervous leak ... as they pull the zip up!  |
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Post by Saloon29s on Aug 1, 2015 23:51:44 GMT 12
Yes a good point here. But !!! You "may have" open a can of worms here. By suggesting this you may have put the price of club membership up. Why. What volunteer will be going out and buying helmets balaclavas fire retardant suits and underwear. A lot of you are complaining about the cost now. Murray you may have to wait another season before you get new rims if this is the case. Lol. But yes there is some very good points made. Yup, and how many people would it affect if it was to be suddenly made a national rule that anyone who drives anything on the track surface or infield has to have a helmet? funny - so far its been only drivers complaining but I bet that would suddenly change. Why would you have a rule that anyone who drives anything on the track or infield has to wear a helmet??? Race cars obviously yes, bikes yes (same as road rules and farm rules). But any vehicle??? Are you serious? |
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Yard
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Posts: 126
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Post by Yard on Aug 2, 2015 0:15:33 GMT 12
Yup, and how many people would it affect if it was to be suddenly made a national rule that anyone who drives anything on the track surface or infield has to have a helmet? funny - so far its been only drivers complaining but I bet that would suddenly change. Why would you have a rule that anyone who drives anything on the track or infield has to wear a helmet??? Race cars obviously yes, bikes yes (same as road rules and farm rules). But any vehicle??? Are you serious? Well this may just put a little light on why. Lol. Obviously you have not heard about the water truck (yes that's right) thAt rolled when watering the track down South. Yes to be fair it was some time ago now. Lol. The point here is. It has happened and could happen again. |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Aug 2, 2015 0:25:14 GMT 12
Why would you have a rule that anyone who drives anything on the track or infield has to wear a helmet??? Race cars obviously yes, bikes yes (same as road rules and farm rules). But any vehicle??? Are you serious?
With this lot a rational reason isn't needed.
However, think about it, pause a while, think about reality.
Most at risk of fire are the St John's folk. In amongst a hot wreck before a driver is removed often.
The tractor recovery folk and others are putting themselves directly in harms way every time they hook up a hot/damaged race car, every time they return a vehicle on to it's wheels. One could say that they are very much more at risk statistically than the actual competitor behind the wheel. I've rolled a few times, could fire twice.
The worst injury over many years was from a power steering hot oil leak in the crutch (no flames). Flame retardant suit and knickers no help!
Yes, many of the existing rules (made with a so-called safety rational) and likewise the new, poorly thought through
and of value perhaps, maybe, one day, someday in a court room - but unlikely.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 1:55:01 GMT 12
I have been on the infield before and have sometimes had cars spinning out of control towards me -. Did you ever consider they might not have been out of control?  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 9:45:47 GMT 12
The fire crews at Palmy are very organized too, they are always the first response and are kitted up in all the right gear including balaclava's and gloves and multi layer overalls even on very hot days/evenings in summer. Fire freaks me out but I bet drivers are a bit more reassured having these guys on hand when things go wrong. free upload picturesimage hostingYes the fire crews are nicely kitted out , but what about all of the officials who are standing a lot closer to the car . They would be first to cop it if the car burst into flames .. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 9:48:23 GMT 12
Actually there DOES seem to be a double standard here - whats the point of promoting driver safety to such a degree when the infield staff are effectively able to ignore to rules all drivers and thier crew have to adhere to? Do the fire crews, infield staff or flag wavers have to wear flame proof undies? answer: no. Do safetey crew or infield staff have to wear protective clothing including helmets? answer: no. Do the drivers of the pace vehicle, tow trucks/tractors, water truck or push trucks have to wear flame retardent clothing? answer: no. Are the above drivers of pace vehicles wearing a helmet and neckbrace of comparable safety standards to the drivers behind him/her? answer: no. If this is required of a driver or crew member of a driver, including those who are not part of the race itself, why is it not required for safety crew, towies, tractor drivers, push truck driver or pace truck driver? What about the water truck driver? He or she makes laps of the track not just during but before the meeting too... so following that line of thought what about the track packers? is there a safety standard being applied to them so that snz can say "we have the safety of all people involved in this sport at heart"? answer: no. Why do the CREW of a race team have safety standards higher then that of the infield staff? I have been on the infield before and have sometimes had cars spinning out of control towards me - what was the stafety standard I had to adhere to? answer: a high visibility vest. Thats a great help for the driver who was out of control as he headed towards me = he could at least see he who he was going to hit. Wouldnt help either of us but at least he could see me. someones gonna come on here and say "a helmet would restrict the peripheral vision of safety crew and make things less safe for them" Im sure of it - so lets think about this, is a helmet going to stop the crew member who got hit from behind from seeing the car that hit him? Where do we start? and where do we stop? good questions - the need to be asked too. Hit the nail on the head there mate . Seems to me that the powers that be are only concerned about sucking money out of the competitors.... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 10:23:27 GMT 12
I have been on the infield before and have sometimes had cars spinning out of control towards me -. Did you ever consider they might not have been out of control? Seriously Rammers? you just quoted me as saying they were out of control.  Who decides - in the middle of a race{this was at a nz saloon title a couple of years ago} - to suddenly spin out towards one of the flag wavers on the infield for no reason? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 10:31:30 GMT 12
Yup, and how many people would it affect if it was to be suddenly made a national rule that anyone who drives anything on the track surface or infield has to have a helmet? funny - so far its been only drivers complaining but I bet that would suddenly change. Why would you have a rule that anyone who drives anything on the track or infield has to wear a helmet??? Race cars obviously yes, bikes yes (same as road rules and farm rules). But any vehicle??? Are you serious? Actually yes I am. the pace vehicle has to maintain a pace that the race can start from - since that is often higher than 40kph on an slippery offroad surface he or she should have safety in mind as well, especially since there is a field of race cars right behind the pace vehicle all wanting to put the hammer down and go. these drivers often do not have seatbelt on. I can understand if its a parade, but no other reason. Ive seen pace vehicles sliding on the clay before - I bet most have, its just a matter of time before its driven by someone who will slide do the wrong thing and hit the wall... Hell its probably happened already. |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Aug 2, 2015 11:12:33 GMT 12
The fire crews at Palmy are very organized too, they are always the first response and are kitted up in all the right gear including balaclava's and gloves and multi layer overalls even on very hot days/evenings in summer. Fire freaks me out but I bet drivers are a bit more reassured having these guys on hand when things go wrong. Yes the fire crews are nicely kitted out , but what about all of the officials who are standing a lot closer to the car . They would be first to cop it if the car burst into flames ..
... and guess what the SNZ and officials, Medic staff, are wearing. Mostly 100% polyester!
All of these awesome folk are in harms way, at risk repeatedly every night of racing, way beyond that of the competitor (this one anyway) as I endure the occasional tumble, rare and short lived fire, cocooned in my enclosed driver area and full containment seat
(that is foam, rubber and synthetic covered).
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Post by bikeboy on Aug 2, 2015 14:41:40 GMT 12
Murray, no safety crew member is tied into a car with a 5-6 point harness (and alot of stockcars have their petrol tanks underneath or very close to the dirvers seat)
that makes the difference in why they all do not need to have fire retardant gear on, the western springs crews all seem to wear fire proof gear, and its something that other tracks in my opinion should try to get up to,
as for you point about quads, with worksafes current best practice guidelines, anyone riding a quad should have a helmet on,
I have no problems with the 2 layer rule coming in,
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Post by MadPhil53a on Aug 2, 2015 20:30:14 GMT 12
I don't understand why if we have to have a 2 layer suit, why do we need underwear? How ridiculous! Everyone had to update their helmets for fire rating and now we have to have a balaclava. If someone wants to wear an open face helmet then maybe yes it is required.
I'm curious, if a person in power asks to see your underwear can you claim harassment? Or if an older guy asks a young kid to show him their undies, does that make him a pedophile?
Just to clarify for the last 5years I have worn combat shorts under my suit to protect my legs from the belts which have been very beneficial. I guess I could at least argue that they are shorts and not underwear.
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Post by beachboy on Aug 2, 2015 21:30:59 GMT 12
Actually there DOES seem to be a double standard here - whats the point of promoting driver safety to such a degree when the infield staff are effectively able to ignore to rules all drivers and thier crew have to adhere to? Do the fire crews, infield staff or flag wavers have to wear flame proof undies? answer: no. Do safetey crew or infield staff have to wear protective clothing including helmets? answer: no. Do the drivers of the pace vehicle, tow trucks/tractors, water truck or push trucks have to wear flame retardent clothing? answer: no. Are the above drivers of pace vehicles wearing a helmet and neckbrace of comparable safety standards to the drivers behind him/her? answer: no. If this is required of a driver or crew member of a driver, including those who are not part of the race itself, why is it not required for safety crew, towies, tractor drivers, push truck driver or pace truck driver? What about the water truck driver? He or she makes laps of the track not just during but before the meeting too... so following that line of thought what about the track packers? is there a safety standard being applied to them so that snz can say "we have the safety of all people involved in this sport at heart"? answer: no. Why do the CREW of a race team have safety standards higher then that of the infield staff? I have been on the infield before and have sometimes had cars spinning out of control towards me - what was the stafety standard I had to adhere to? answer: a high visibility vest. Thats a great help for the driver who was out of control as he headed towards me = he could at least see he who he was going to hit. Wouldnt help either of us but at least he could see me. someones gonna come on here and say "a helmet would restrict the peripheral vision of safety crew and make things less safe for them" Im sure of it - so lets think about this, is a helmet going to stop the crew member who got hit from behind from seeing the car that hit him? Where do we start? and where do we stop? good questions - the need to be asked too. Interested to know what safety standards are higher for race team crew than infield staff that you mention?? I don’t see many other forms of motor sport with infield staff apart from some safety crew having to wear helmets, it would be more of a safety hindrance than help, you wouldn't be able to hear or see cars coming onto the infield that great. Also a helmet isn't going to protect you too much if hit buy a stock car the injuries are going to be far worse to the bottom of your body than the top. A lot of people are forgetting that a driver of a car can be unconscious and-or trapped for minutes and unable to escape from a fire that is why they should have the most protection that they can out of anyone. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 21:41:51 GMT 12
Actually there DOES seem to be a double standard here - whats the point of promoting driver safety to such a degree when the infield staff are effectively able to ignore to rules all drivers and thier crew have to adhere to? Do the fire crews, infield staff or flag wavers have to wear flame proof undies? answer: no. Do safetey crew or infield staff have to wear protective clothing including helmets? answer: no. Do the drivers of the pace vehicle, tow trucks/tractors, water truck or push trucks have to wear flame retardent clothing? answer: no. Are the above drivers of pace vehicles wearing a helmet and neckbrace of comparable safety standards to the drivers behind him/her? answer: no. If this is required of a driver or crew member of a driver, including those who are not part of the race itself, why is it not required for safety crew, towies, tractor drivers, push truck driver or pace truck driver? What about the water truck driver? He or she makes laps of the track not just during but before the meeting too... so following that line of thought what about the track packers? is there a safety standard being applied to them so that snz can say "we have the safety of all people involved in this sport at heart"? answer: no. Why do the CREW of a race team have safety standards higher then that of the infield staff? I have been on the infield before and have sometimes had cars spinning out of control towards me - what was the stafety standard I had to adhere to? answer: a high visibility vest. Thats a great help for the driver who was out of control as he headed towards me = he could at least see he who he was going to hit. Wouldnt help either of us but at least he could see me. someones gonna come on here and say "a helmet would restrict the peripheral vision of safety crew and make things less safe for them" Im sure of it - so lets think about this, is a helmet going to stop the crew member who got hit from behind from seeing the car that hit him? Where do we start? and where do we stop? good questions - the need to be asked too. Interested to know what safety standards are higher for race team crew than infield staff that you mention?? I don’t see many other forms of motor sport with infield staff apart from some safety crew having to wear helmets, it would be more of a safety hindrance than help, you wouldn't be able to hear or see cars coming onto the infield that great. Also a helmet isn't going to protect you too much if hit buy a stock car the injuries are going to be far worse to the bottom of your body than the top. A lot of people are forgetting that a driver of a car can be unconscious and-or trapped for minutes and unable to escape from a fire that is why they should have the most protection that they can out of anyone. HAH!! I KNEW SOME ONE WOULD SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT!!! - there are helmets that dont interfere with your hearing, my bike helmet is simply quiets things down a little - I can hear as easily as anyone else while wearing it! Seriously though - have a look next time midgets, sprintcars or even six shooters, hell - any open wheel car at all - any time they are being pushed onto the track the quad riders all have to have helmets, yet our infield staff dont when they are on quads etc on the track? - thats a higher standard of safety for drivers crew than for infield staff. I might as well ask this as well - infield crash crew that get alot closer to the cars than some fire crews have less protection than the fire crews - sometimes the pin on the extinguishers isnt even pulled until they see a fire - how are they being protected? "the drivers are more likey to be burnt" {paraphrasing there} BOLL OCKS, just because they arent strapped in the car doesnt mean they cant be injured. |
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Post by beachboy on Aug 2, 2015 21:59:45 GMT 12
You didn't mention quad bike riders in your initial rant at all just Crew and infield staff!
I agree anyone wearing a quad bike should have a helmet on, But I can’t see yr type of bike helmet being of much use to standing infield staff if hit by a car.
But out of interest did you wear your bike helmet that "simply quiets things down a little" when you were on the infield or simply chose not to because it was not in the rules?
I’m, pretty sure there would be rules around fire extinguishers with regards to when the pin should be removed and that the operators have the correct training . Fire extinguishers have pins for a reason and if there is no sign of fire I wouldn't of thought you should be removing them.
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Post by Skorp on Aug 2, 2015 22:12:23 GMT 12
someones gonna come on here and say "a helmet would restrict the peripheral vision of safety crew and make things less safe for them" I'm one of the flag marshall's here at Palmy usually found on turn two and I choose to wear a helmet. Not because I have to, but because I have found that with all the dirt being flung up by the cars as they race past me, it helps with visibility. And yes it does restrict my peripheral vision, but not by a whole lot and certainly not enough to worry about. Without the helmet, I would have my arms covering my face to be able to maintain some vision and in some cases (Superstocks for example) not able to see anything until after the cars had passed me. It's also saved me from being hit in the head by hard lumps of dirt and the odd concrete chip after cars have hit the wall in front of me. It also gives me more confidence to get closer to the fence during a race when I need to, for example to check on a car pointing towards the fence, without the helmet I would be much more reluctant to get as close as I need to some times. And the strange looks I often get are well worth it, especially at teams champs when I'm surrounded by spectators. Got a few comments and strange looks when I put on the helmet before the first consolation race a couple of years back, only for me to end up laughing as the dirt started flying and those who commented or gave me the strange looks found themselves ducking for cover every times the cars came past. Personally, I think the level of safety gear being worn by the infield staff is adequate (at least here at Palmy, don't know about other tracks). The main rule that needs to be enforced is no nylon/synthetic clothing (the safety vests are a different story, I don't think I've seen any that weren't synthetic). I think there is also a no shorts rule at Palmy or was when I first started. Aside from that, infield staff aren't usually in a position where there are exposed to much danger from fire, that's what the fire crews are for and everyone else should stay away from a potentially burning car until the fire crews have determined that it is safe for them to approach, I often see that happening here at Palmy after a rollover, the fire crews are first to reach the vehicle, then they wave the others over after checking for fire (and sometimes even doing a quick check on the driver). No one else should be rushing to reach a crashed car, not even the paramedics as the last thing we need is the paramedics getting even minor burns because there was a fire, there is no amount of safety gear that the paramedics can wear to be safe from fire and still be able to properly do their jobs - it's not practical for them to wear gloves. Would it be ideal for all infield staff to have fireproof overalls and gloves, but this is not an ideal world and doing that comes with a cost. As most of those on the infield are volunteers, they aren't going to want to have to get their own safety gear so SNZ or the clubs/promotors would have to provide it. As for helmets, there's not a lot of good one will do for those on the infield, the amount of debris getting flung at them is so small its more likely they will be struck my lightning and if thy are hit by a car then the helmet is only going to protect their brain from impact with the car or ground, and won't stop their brain from bouncing around in their head. Those on the outside however, might benefit form wearing a helmet, but not enough to justify buying a new one. I just used one I had lying around, it wouldn't pass any SNZ inspection, but it doesn't need to. |
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