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Post by John W. on Oct 14, 2018 11:30:39 GMT 12
Yup...that is the one.... |
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Post by percy on Oct 14, 2018 13:57:52 GMT 12
Some wild inaccuracies in the article
- Speedway started at Western Springs in November 1929. It won't be 94 years. The final meeting will be 90 1/2 years from opening night.
- Brent Holden's statistics for Midget attendance last season are incorrect. The average across the season was 25.5 cars (ironically the same as he claims for the 2012/13 season). Even excluding the international series the average was 22.6 cars with only two nights in the entire season below the claimed average of less than 20 cars.
- Stating numbers for national championships (I don't know where these numbers come from) does not provided an iota of evidence for growth (or otherwise) of Western Springs classes. National championship attendance is influenced by location in any given class and is a poor measure of anything let alone growth in Western Springs classes. To measure growth trends need to be analysed over a number of years. For what it's worth I don't believe there has been much growth in Springs classes in recent years (perhaps Sprintcars excepted) but the same could be said for the sport as a whole.
I think some fair points are made in the article at various times but by the same token some of the numbers used are inaccurate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 14:07:43 GMT 12
Dunno about that Percy.
SNZ publish numbers and statistics - they are free for all to see and make up your own mind on growth and numbers.
Not unusual for the media to get things wrong these days such as suggesting the numbers were national championship entries, when in fact they are national competitor numbers. The description is wrong but the numbers are correct. I suppose the fair points your are referring to are to do with Bill's 'speedway facts' as given to the council Finance committee.
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Post by John W. on Oct 14, 2018 15:01:51 GMT 12
Some wild inaccuracies in the article - Speedway started at Western Springs in November 1929. It won't be 94 years. The final meeting will be 90 1/2 years from opening night. - Brent Holden's statistics for Midget attendance last season are incorrect. The average across the season was 25.5 cars (ironically the same as he claims for the 2012/13 season). Even excluding the international series the average was 22.6 cars with only two nights in the entire season below the claimed average of less than 20 cars. - Stating numbers for national championships (I don't know where these numbers come from) does not provided an iota of evidence for growth (or otherwise) of Western Springs classes. National championship attendance is influenced by location in any given class and is a poor measure of anything let alone growth in Western Springs classes. To measure growth trends need to be analysed over a number of years. For what it's worth I don't believe there has been much growth in Springs classes in recent years (perhaps Sprintcars excepted) but the same could be said for the sport as a whole. I think some fair points are made in the article at various times but by the same token some of the numbers used are inaccurate. Percy - I put it to you that the first inaccuracy is actually created by Western Springs Speedway themselves... Western Springs Stadium has been used for speedway since 30 November 1929 when motorcycling (broad siding) was introduced. Midget Car racing started in December 1937 with an International race including NZ pioneers Ron Roycroft and Geo Smith. The first full speedway season started in January 1938. With the war years there was a break until 1944 when Speedway with Cycling, Motor Cycling and Midget Cars became the major entertainment event during the summer months in Auckland. This "fact" is taken from springsspeedway.com/about-speedway/history/ I therefore suggest we not split hairs over the 90 or 94 years of speedway at WS and just use the term "over 90 years". **Edit** - I have done a bit more research...Western Springs only had cars there 80 years ago...and motorbikes possibly not much before that depending on where you look on the below page. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Springs_Stadium |
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Post by magilla on Oct 14, 2018 15:32:07 GMT 12
when counting average cars for the midgets are they adding F2 and A grade together as one class (as SNZ does)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 15:40:53 GMT 12
Statistics are not issue with this particular article, what in fact gone on behind closed doors which is of more relevance to this.
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Post by The Observer on Oct 14, 2018 15:48:17 GMT 12
I’m trying to understand what the real problem here is
Is it the council investing 15mil into a new speedway
Is it Bill investing 15mil into the new speedway?
Is the unspoken that Bill will remain promoter for the next ten years?
Or is it really the springs finally coming to an end - something that’s been flagged for 20 years?
Sure some politicking behind the scenes - but a purpose built track for 30mil, with greater racing opportunities?
Just wonder if they will make the same mistake as Baypark with. Super wide track - as it seems the non contact classes hardly seem to use the width either.
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Post by graemeh on Oct 14, 2018 16:09:58 GMT 12
Statistics are not issue with this particular article, what in fact gone on behind closed doors which is of more relevance to this. What also should be noted is that the Council have been suckered into a deal with Springs Promotion who have lead Council to believe they have the absolute rights to the speedway classes they run, when in fact if the competitors chose not to licence with SPL they would have nothing. Some years ago a group of sidecar competitors, tired of the promoter at the Springs, broke away, the result being Waikaraka Park were granted a licence to run sidecars as well. Its not impossible for a similar scenario to happen again given the right circumstances which would leave SPL and the council where? One day the competitors at Western Springs will wake up and realise that they have some power. I guess at the moment they are happy someone with deep pockets is bankrolling the deal. No promoter under the current framework of SNZ is guaranteed anything more than one season at a time and for the Council to be party to a long term lease with a promoter under these circumstances is foolish. The conditions of any lease to protect each parties investment will be nigh on impossible to formulate. I personally think Bill Buckley is foolish to invest money into this project with no long term guarantee, but he's a lot smarter than me so who knows. |
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Post by percy on Oct 14, 2018 20:58:00 GMT 12
Reason why the council is dealing with SPL and Bill Buckley is simple. Who else is bringing $15 million to the table?
I'd be surprised if Bill looks at speedway as being an investment. Without being privy to financial information I'll suggest he's contributed far more dollars to the sport than he'll ever see come back the other way. For Bill I imagine this is a philanthropic pursuit, utilising his wealth to create a world class speedway facility for Aucklanders.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 4:27:07 GMT 12
Reason why the council is dealing with SPL and Bill Buckley is simple. Who else is bringing $15 million to the table? I'd be surprised if Bill looks at speedway as being an investment. Without being privy to financial information I'll suggest he's contributed far more dollars to the sport than he'll ever see come back the other way. For Bill I imagine this is a philanthropic pursuit, utilising his wealth to create a world class speedway facility for Aucklanders. Looks like SPL are already getting a return on their recently appointed social media guru propagandist. Is it too harsh to say that Buckley is ...utilising his wealth to create a world class speedway facility for Aucklanders his own agenda, and if that means sacrificing Western Springs, Waiaraka Park, and betraying/back stabbing many WS loyalists - then so be it? Isn't any residual benefit to Aucklanders of a new facility built to SPLs specification alone subordinated to SPL's primary agenda of maintaining control of their narrow definition of what speedway should be? |
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Post by kd on Oct 15, 2018 10:45:11 GMT 12
Some people just love sniffing out a conspiracy from the faintest whiff of backdoor dealing. Just because Percy's facts and opinions dont agree with your own doesnt mean he is working for 'the man' (Springs) as their propaganda man. Get a grip.
The facts are, Springs campaigned publically to stay at the Springs and by showing the council how much public support there was for speedway to stay in Auckland, when Western Springs was inevitably shutdown, the council knew they had to re-home speedway somewhere else and make a financial contribution to do so. If there was no campaigning to stay at the Springs, then council may well have told SPL (Springs) to get lost and find your own home because the public dont care that we are moving you.
Its all just a game folks, Springs played the strategy to make the council and RFA look like the bad guys, get the public support to stay at the Springs, so the council feel an obligation to contribute financially to relocating the Springs to another site. The winners are speedway fans and teams who will still have three tracks to go to, and better yet, each track can specialise in their own style of racing, Stocks, Bikes and Openwheel.
You cant blame SPL/Buckley for looking after their own interests (and Openwheel racing) as the number one priority, its their business and passion. The fact is a merge with Waikaraka and running Stock and Openwheel classes on the same track would be a compromise. A high banked, high speed open wheel track doesnt suit Stockcars and a flat, narrow track doesnt suit open wheel cars. So if the two tracks merged, someone is going to lose out, or both.
Funny to read the article and see the unhappy Midget car owners complaining, im sure they could all chip in and come up with the $15million contribution themselves right? Why dont they start looking for an alternative site in Auckland to start up a non-SNZ track, put up or shut up. Seems to be a lot of big ego car owners in the Midget ranks that have an axe to grind with the promotion.
Now we just have to see this Colin Dale plan actually progress, which could well never happen, lets face it. But we should be happy that Openwheel racing has the best chance to stay in Auckland and find a long term home, which is mostly thanks to Buckley's passion, resources and the campaigning led by SPL/Mosen. Its as simple as that, who cares how the deals are done as long as we are sniffing racecar methanol instead of conspiracies.
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Post by percy on Oct 15, 2018 11:32:15 GMT 12
Just as my opinions haven't always aligned with the owners of NZDTR magazine in the last 14 years, nor will my opinion always align with Springs Promotions. However in this instance I'm in agreeance with the move to Colin Dale Park.
The scenario as I see it is we either move on our own terms or we be moved on the Councils terms. Trying to battle the Council and NZ Cricket (not to mention Rugby) to retain Western Springs is a futile exercise. Rugby League couldn't retain Carlaw Park and likewise we aren't going to retain Western Springs no matter how hard we try. By sticking all the eggs into a retain Western Springs strategy you lose any leverage you have. The likely result I'm afraid would be the council turfing us out and throwing together some sort of arrangement with Waikaraka Park which would ultimately be detrimental to both parties.
If you believe there is a long-term future at Western Springs good for you. No doubt it will be a sombre mood on the final ever night and I like many others may shed a tear. But that shouldn't cloud judgement of what's required to move this sport forward.
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Post by bernie on Oct 15, 2018 19:24:21 GMT 12
I’m trying to understand what the real problem here is Is it the council investing 15mil into a new speedway Is it Bill investing 15mil into the new speedway? Is the unspoken that Bill will remain promoter for the next ten years? Or is it really the springs finally coming to an end - something that’s been flagged for 20 years? Sure some politicking behind the scenes - but a purpose built track for 30mil, with greater racing opportunities? Just wonder if they will make the same mistake as Baypark with. Super wide track - as it seems the non contact classes hardly seem to use the width either. |
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Post by bernie on Oct 15, 2018 19:43:59 GMT 12
The issues for me is that $15 - $30 m of our hard earned rate payer dollars, are being spent on moving a private enterprise to a new location. Especially when you consider that for one hell of a lot less, both groups could share one venue, Waikaraka Park. What I find even more gauling is that the claims to justify this indulgence on our rate dollars, i.e. open wheel classes need different fences to other classes, go unchallenged. We in the sport know that this is bollox. Any number of tracks run a full range of classes on any given night, and I haven't yet seen a fence change mid event. Where is the due diligence from those who are elected to look after our ratepayer dollars.
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Post by midway on Oct 15, 2018 19:45:39 GMT 12
There is enough water for the ducks to swim in next door Percy ,without wanting to shed a tear  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 20:20:21 GMT 12
If colin Dale doesnt come off, guess what speedway fans wont have venue anyway. quite frankly wont be any better off than situation currently stands. at the end the day dumping waikaraka park idea could come back bite them reall hard. only time will tell, wouldnt be optimisic seeing speedway after 2020 lease runs out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 5:13:12 GMT 12
It unfortunate that much of the publicity Speedway gets in the media is generally so negative. No wonder many in the the public consider speedway supporters to be bogans. Articles like this latest 'Betrayed': The secret speedway deal that left fans gobsmacked', airing speedways dirty laundry in public, make for uneasy reading. Too bad also that those at the helm of speedway in Auckland are unable to sit down and work out a deal together in a spirit of cooperation to the mutual benefit of all. Instead we have people like Mosen, who at a prize giving said.. "We have also made it very clear that we will not be moving to Colin Dale despite what they may think!". Clearly Mosen is a bold faced liar, scheming away behind the scene and turning some within the relatively small yet passionate speedway fraternity against itself. I guess we should not be that surprised though, given Bill Buckleys uncanny ability to dredge up dodgy characters to run the show, if this previous less than pleasant example is anything to go bye. Too bad this kind of woeful personal selection undermines the many good things he has done. Some people have integrity, and some people don't. I'm all in for a new purpose built track, but only a fool would believe it should came at any price. |
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tahi1
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Post by tahi1 on Oct 16, 2018 7:12:31 GMT 12
phill b love it spot on in every comment the next article could read voice of speedway returns that will show mosen colours this will make the front page of the hearld
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Post by mod46c on Oct 16, 2018 11:23:52 GMT 12
It unfortunate that much of the publicity Speedway gets in the media is generally so negative. No wonder many in the the public consider speedway supporters to be bogans. Articles like this latest 'Betrayed': The secret speedway deal that left fans gobsmacked', airing speedways dirty laundry in public, make for uneasy reading. Too bad also that those at the helm of speedway in Auckland are unable to sit down and work out a deal together in a spirit of cooperation to the mutual benefit of all. Instead we have people like Mosen, who at a prize giving said.. "We have also made it very clear that we will not be moving to Colin Dale despite what they may think!". Clearly Mosen is a bold faced liar, scheming away behind the scene and turning some within the relatively small yet passionate speedway fraternity against itself. I guess we should not be that surprised though, given Bill Buckleys uncanny ability to dredge up dodgy characters to run the show, if this previous less than pleasant example is anything to go bye. Too bad this kind of woeful personal selection undermines the many good things he has done. Some people have integrity, and some people don't. I'm all in for a new purpose built track, but only a fool would believe it should came at any price. Sorry I can't see any situation where having one car based track in our biggest city would be better than having two, would be better for our sport. |
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tahi1
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Post by tahi1 on Oct 16, 2018 13:03:03 GMT 12
mod46c think i read it correct your for one track and share it if thats the case i agree but the main point about all this is the greg mosen control factor its not about whats best for speedway its whats best for him because he knows frank wouldnt stand for his bullnuts and lies , a mixture of classes on a night mods ,midgets ,stockcars or any mix you want , title nights then clearer for running other nights
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