lowered front sub-frame (Read 6,157 times)

[Saloon29s]

If you take the blocks out, will that then alter the bumper height? If so then you guys will need to change your strut mounts as well.

[renwick72p]

This is what the reply was from snz
cameron, thank you for your email.

I have referred this matter onto the Board of Directors. Once they have had an opportunity to make a decision on this matter, I will be back to you with a formal reply.

Kind regards


Josh Cleaver
Chief Executive Officer - Speedway New Zealand Inc
P O Box 38, New Plymouth 4340
Phone: [phone] or 0275 764 648

[~HUGGIES34P~]

stockcar29s said:

If you take the blocks out, will that then alter the bumper height? If so then you guys will need to change your strut mounts as well.

Yes since the Sub-Frame is atachd to the blocks and then the chassie rails, and alot of cars dont have adjustable sturt mounts.

[rod]

sounds like there must be a whole lot of bad handling ministocks around the country, new and old, having their 'subframe' mounted directly to the chassis, is this a localised issue?
as it was said, it gives you better corner speed, cant see how, but if so it would become an advantage to the said car, i guess the rear mounting points are lower to make this set up work how it should, just wonder what else is changed, Springs,,
might be easier to comply to the origional option and change it, and in closing, be fair to all the other competitors running in class instead of making an issue of it and running championship meetings in a blackmarked car.

[Deleted]

The point being that on a car running no spacer blocks, the arms are no longer on the same angle as the donor car.

So by using fuzzy logic, running the spacer blocks is sticking to the OEM/donor car rules more than not running them! ;D

[worldno1]

stockcar29s said:

If you take the blocks out, will that then alter the bumper height? If so then you guys will need to change your strut mounts as well.

that is right mate, the reason i put mine is so i didnt have the trouble like i did last year with bumper hieghts, this yeahas been good until now!!!!!!

[WOFTAM]

stockcar29s said:

If you take the blocks out, will that then alter the bumper height? If so then you guys will need to change your strut mounts as well.

Yep should you have to set up car again is well..?

[thegreenhornet]

This is the actual letter that Gary Parkes wrote to the Board:

Re: Ministockfront suspension mounts
Attn: Josh Cleaver

I understand the board has moved to have ministocks remove blocks between the front chassis and front cross member and have been told the reason is because blocks are not shown on the plans in the rule book.
I question this reason as the plan doesn't show mounts for anything. Such as the seat, seat belts, steering, steering idler etc.
My daughter began racing a youth ministock as number 102p this season and is enjoying the sport immensely. The class is a great entry level to speedway. I point out though that in Palmerston North there is no prize money and no New Zealand Championship recognition.
I looked at the blocks on the axle, as most people with Nissan cars seem to run them. I've also looked at the original Datsun Sunny car.
If blocks are not fitted, the suspension cross member is not in it's original position and the suspension will not work properly.
If the blocks are not fitted, the car does not comply with the rule T15(e) that is, with the cross member fitted directly to the chassis, the bottom suspension arm sits at a drastically altered angle, giving the car serious bad handling characteristics. The car will have uncontollable bump steer problems and a roll centre much higher than the original Datsun Sunny. This could even cause a safety issue.
It is my understanding that the problem is not prevalent on cars built from a Toyota donor car. I guess the chasis height on the two original cars are different.
In a season where the rules seem to be getting looked at a lot closer, would it be possible to look into this specification more closely before making it mandatory to make changes. It is not a simple thing to change.
I have built several Superstocks with my own design of independent front suspension and understand the logic in how it works. You could prossibly run this past the President- Mr Peter Kuriger as an experienced chassis builder. He will understand the problems this will cause.
Once again, I ask if you could please look more closely at this issue before asking competitors to make unnescessary changes.

Thank you,
Yours faithfully,

Gary Parkes - Superstock drivers rep
Renee Parkes - Ministock competitor 102p

[thegreenhornet]

Please keep up with your e-mails and faxes to the board. If you sit back and do nothing , you will only have yourself to blame.

The Green Hornet ;D

[rod]

not all ministocks have the fancy adjustable strut towers, so why dont you just set the heights correctly from the tower height to get the right angle, been done this way since they started and never had these issues and there is alot of real good handling cars out there, time to move on, i think!

[hermo]

The original chassis on a Datsun is in fact deeper than the chassis rail on a mini stock so you need to have the spacer block to keep the bottom arm on the correct angle. With out the block you get bump steer and the front roll center is altered, this would make the car illegal wouldn't it?

[WOFTAM]

We have taken ours out all good now.
But we had to raise height of radiator cut this little bit of metal off the thing we took blocks of so it doesn't hit this steering arm bit. Then after all that we just got to setup car again.
Front left was fraction to high all other bumper heights were perfect.

Other then that its mint. Im glad thats over.

[rod]

good on ya Tim, simple process by the sound of it, enjoy your racing!

[thegreenhornet]

Yes, you are correct Rod, lots of cars dont have them and handle extreely well. However there are lots of bigger issues here.

1/ There are no pictures or information telling you how to mount your cross members. Drilling six 10mm holes through your main chassis rails to bolt your cross member will weaken your car, also on our car, they will hit the vertical side of the box section and so is not possible. As Basil mentioned earlier tapping into 3mm thick plate is crazy. Also technically, welding your cross member to the chassis would be wrong because its not welded, but bolted on the donor car. Does that mean all cars with welded on cross members are illegal? Where does this stop?

2/ A number of cars tested at Palmy( not just Ministocks, but also a certain Super Stock) had 5mm head plates, yet were allowed to race. A major safety issue, yet cars with a minor thing such as spacer blocks, have seven days to correct or be banned from racing for good.

3/ We were told they (the board) were meeting to discuss the spacer block issue on Jan 21st (or there abouts), and yet we have to remove them immediately, surely common sense would say to let us carry on with them, till they have made there decision. Why remove something, then possibly be allowed to put it back on 5 weeks later.

4/ Some cars have had them on from new. One car i know of is 7 seasons old, whats changed all of a sudden, that they (the Board), don't want them on now.

5/ If they are banned, surely at least allow people till the off season to change there cars and not weeks before xmas. A lot of people are not engineering competent and will have to pay someone to fix there cars. Not a good time, when money is tight at this time of year. Also getting the car to handle again could be a real problem for people not competent in car setup.

6/ If they make us change, it also means our steering box mounts, steering, body mounts, and eveything else thats left up to us to decide how to mount, could also be illegal.

7/ Our local scrutineer told me, his interpretation of the rule book, was that ANY car with over 3mm plate on it was illegal. He hasn't enforced it yet, is this the next thing they are going to jump on? Would you mount your steering box to 3mm plate? Surely some 5mm seat braces would be better than 3mm?

We just want some fairness and sensibility from the board...

The Green Hornet

[renwick72p]

This is the repy from the SNZ today,

From: Josh Cleaver
Date: 12/12/07 12:28:17
To: Brian Renwick
Subject: RE: Ministock sub- frames


Cameron

As per the Directors ruling at our last meeting at this stage the
lowering blocks are not allowed on Ministocks. Should they revisit the
issue at some time in the future and change that view then that will
become the ruling at that time.

The rules have not changed and that the blocks have always been illegal
.

Could I suggest that a competitor puts a descent case as to why the
blocks should be allowed and comes up with a reasonable measurement
as to what spacer size there should be. Until such time as this is done
then the Directors of SNZ have no choice but to enforce the current
rules.


Kind regards


Josh Cleaver
Chief Executive Officer - Speedway New Zealand Inc
P O Box 38, New Plymouth 4340
Phone: [phone] or 0275 764 648

________________________________

[WOFTAM]

rod said:

good on ya Tim, simple process by the sound of it, enjoy your racing!

Cheers mate good luck to any one else taking them out.

[thegreenhornet]

Cameron, may i suggest sending SNZ a photo of :

1/ A photo with a tape measure showing the height from the ground to the under side of the cross member on the donor car.

2/ A photo with a tape measure showing the height from the ground to the underside of the cross member on YOUR car.

This should show the board what we are trying to achieve, if the heights are close to being the same, then the arms should be approx the same angles to. This should prove, all we are trying to achieve, is getting our suspension standard as per the road car.

Keep up the good work

The Green Hornet ;D

[renwick72p]

This is what we sent to the SNZ again

Here is the measurements showing the angle of the bottom arm to the sub-frame, the comparison is between ministock and Datsun sunny , Ministock outer 145mm, inner 170mm the difference is 25mm between the two, Datsun sunny outer 155mm, inner 185mm the difference between the two is 30mm, we found is gets the closest to the donor car with the 50mm blocks between the sub-frame and the chassis of the ministock, if the block is taken out the bottom arms have more angle, and it will handle worst than a standard road car. Wait your reply Thanks Cameron Renwick 72p


Ministock inner
170mm

Ministock outter
145mm



Datsun Sunny inner
185mm

Datsun Sunny outter
155mm

[The Godfather]

Perhaps a more appropriate response from SNZ could have been...

Thank you for the information supplied regarding the spacers on ministock front sub-frames. As your governing body, it appears as though we have failed to pick up on this in the past.
Now that it has come to our attention we are obliged to act upon it.
Although technically the blocks are illegal, we understand there are quite a number of cars currently running this set-up.

In the interests of the costs in materials and time required to remove all blocks in all cars we have decided to allow these cars to be run until we can ascertain whether having these blocks gives competitors an unfair advantage or whether there is a safety issue associated with this set-up.
If either of these situations are found to exist competitors will be required to remove the blocks immediately.We will advise all competitors of our findings at the earliest possible convenience.

(Sometimes common sense just has to prevail)

[thegreenhornet]

Wow, Flame crusher what a great response that letter would be.
Suggest you nominate yourself to get onto the SNZ board next time around, I'll certainly vote you . I know I'm harping on but, if you are going to review this issue in late January then surely the status quo should remain until a decision has been made? Josh Cleaver SNZ CEO told me they had a 40 minute meeting regarding these blocks, I would like to know what information they had regarding the for and against of these blocks, I suggest someone wanted them banned and persuaded the board to do so without the full information available to them (the board).

The Green Hornet ;D