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Post by Action-Man on Feb 1, 2009 15:55:17 GMT 12
I been viewing a number of hits in Stockcars, Superstock recently.
Some from 70's, 80's, 90's and more recently
the 70's & 80's were solid but all drivers seemed to walk away,
the 90's sees a big increase speed, but still drivers are going in full noise with lots of gear damage and the drivers try to continue on in teams or drive off the track where possible at a normal meeting.
Correct me if I am wrong but Since 2000 through to today more drivers seem to be taking sleeps in the form of knockouts.
Sure speed is still a factor, but I don't believe it's the reason.
Hampton's hit wasn't spectacular or overly aggressive, but the result was both drivers sleeping.
This got me thinking as to what has changed?
It's only a theory but I think it's the new style of seat being used.. I have heard drivers swear by the Racetec but I'm of the opinion the rigid side wings/head restraints on the seat are assisting on knocking out our Superstock/Stockcar drivers. the head is being bashed by the seat on impact.
I would like to see some specs from SNZ on Stockcar/Superstock KO's before & a few years after the introduction of the new seats.
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Post by mike004 on Feb 1, 2009 16:07:34 GMT 12
Or is it to do with the style of chassis and the type of steel they are made of??? Can anyone expand it further??
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Post by deno Tank 9c on Feb 1, 2009 16:17:50 GMT 12
100% aggree old school . The guy that makes my seats is a seating specalist for the disabled and he believes that the new seats are the prime cause of drivers having these sleeps . The seats are not padded enough to obsorb the shock and are not fitted to the driver .
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Post by DeMoN on Feb 1, 2009 16:28:03 GMT 12
Dad Reckons the causes to his Knock outs where that he was hitting his head on the wings/head restraints on the racetech seats..and that they had no give..
Got a kirky now with there styled wings/head restraints which do give movement.
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Post by jordy77w on Feb 1, 2009 16:36:39 GMT 12
Dad Reckons the causes to his Knock outs where that he was hitting his head on the wings/head restraints on the racetech seats..and that they had no give.. Got a kirky now with there styled wings/head restraints which do give movement. Have to agree with Jayden.... I love the racetec coz i feel its more coumfy and padded compared to the kirkey i have now (only have a kirkey coz the racetec was to wide to mount. Anyway, In my racetec I had a few decent hits and that was back in the stockcar and 9/10 times it was the wings that gave me the headache, I think they are a great idea, just needs to be more "developed" in a way? |
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Post by MadMarty13B on Feb 1, 2009 16:40:48 GMT 12
I wont have a race tech to be the position of your back it wrong I got an old kirky and its straight up and down so my back is perfectly straight,I was going to get head restraints but have held off because I am still undecided what to get,I have however brought a lighter helmet the other was way to heavy.
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Post by petero on Feb 1, 2009 21:42:14 GMT 12
This discussion came up some time back and if I recall correctly, Sonya Hickey replied as to why they do not use a seat with the side wings.
prefers the belts on the window, ensure light helmet and they had some other system as well with the shoulders ??.
Many varied opinions when this has come up each time.
What does not appear to have happened is a record kept of such incidents and more in depth background done on them for future safety ??
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Post by Action-Man on Feb 2, 2009 8:13:01 GMT 12
This discussion came up some time back and if I recall correctly, Sonya Hickey replied as to why they do not use a seat with the side wings. prefers the belts on the window, ensure light helmet and they had some other system as well with the shoulders ??. Sorry for rehashing an old issue, I missed the last couple. With Sonja being such an advocate for safety in the sport I would have thought she would have started ratteling a few cages. The introduction of a seat that assists in knocking out the driver and SNZ don't bother keeping a records? I'm almost certain that all drivers that get Knocked out for whatever reason have to take some time off. 21 days is the norm. All tracks have an accident record book to comply with OSH that has to be filled in should an accident occure. getting knocked out would warrant and entry in this book. I'm sure SNZ have a record of the number of drivers that are knocked out? If the Rugby union with 100,000 players of all ages can keep tabs on the injuries, causes and outcomes surly SNZ can make the effort to observe the new seat they approved a few years back. I don't want to upset a lot of Racetec or Kirkey seat owners with head restraints. I know If I had paid $2000.00 plus for my seat I would do so believing I'm doing the utmost to improve the safety for my race vehicle, but what proof do we have? If anything I'd say there knocking the drivers out? from the few responces in here id say it's a factor. Ask yourself when was the last time you saw a hit like Hampton's that put 2 drivers to sleep? The Answer never, and then ask yourself why? It's not rocket science. SNZ need to step up and take a serous look. They are either asleep at the wheel or ignoring the facts and simply don't want to upset a number of Expensive seat owners. |
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Post by Mav, back bein a pit biarch on Feb 2, 2009 8:36:39 GMT 12
Ask yourself when was the last time you saw a hit like Hampton's that put 2 drivers to sleep? The Answer never, and then ask yourself why? It's not rocket science. Does Hampton actually have a full containment seat with head restraint? As he has the window net, which his head seemed to go outside of in this last crash. If so it doesn't quite back up your theory, but not saying that this isn't a fair and reasonable query. Safety is paramount, so all avenues should be documented and gauged for periods, before being the be all and end all. |
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Post by Action-Man on Feb 2, 2009 9:34:42 GMT 12
Ask yourself when was the last time you saw a hit like Hampton's that put 2 drivers to sleep? The Answer never, and then ask yourself why? It's not rocket science. Does Hampton actually have a full containment seat with head restraint? As he has the window net, which his head seemed to go outside of in this last crash. If so it doesn't quite back up your theory, but not saying that this isn't a fair and reasonable query. Safety is paramount, so all avenues should be documented and gauged for periods, before being the be all and end all. Oh your right... Doh  I just took another look at the Pictures.. Ummm?? I'll have to talk to the man himself but I'm sure he used to run a seat with head restraints.. And the guy has had a few sleeps..maybe thats the reason he changed? I still believe records need to be kept. With all the talk of youth support and fostering etc, I still believe the head restraint seats are part of the increased KO's being seen. and need to be further investigated.. Dont Expect Racetec to help. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2009 13:00:05 GMT 12
I still believe the head restraint seats are part of the increased KO's being seen. and need to be further investigated.. Dont Expect Racetec to help I think Collingwood uses the Kirkey full containment with the head wings? And Hampton a custom seat without any. I assume the wings are to stop neck damage in a sideways impact from hyperextension? It appears an unforseen byproduct of this is the possibility of concussion from the head whacking into them. Broken neck or KO, neither is good, but which is the lesser of two evils? Hopefully with some adjustment the KO's can be reduced. Not sure about your last dig though Old School, as what you are describing has been noted and the new RaceTech's have been tweaked with additional padding on the wings now. Which just shows the advantage of them being manufactured in NZ, and being in regular contact with actual Stockcar drivers. I have seen guys with older RaceTech's adding their own padding to the wings also. I think the idea would be to make sure the helmet is as close as possible. The bigger the gap between the helmet and wing, the more momentum the head can gather, leading to more impact when it does hit I assume. |
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Post by MadMarty13B on Feb 2, 2009 14:19:23 GMT 12
Yes the less gap the better
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Post by The Observer on Feb 2, 2009 15:54:02 GMT 12
Ask yourself when was the last time you saw a hit like Hampton's that put 2 drivers to sleep? The Answer never, and then ask yourself why? It's not rocket science. Shane Penn on Brian Johnson, one of the biggest hits i have ever seen. May have been 2000, when Shane Penn raced the Hickeys spare car, and contracted to Rotorua. Full bore at the end of the bend, and both drivers knocked out. Ended BJ's career. |
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Post by Tony on Feb 2, 2009 17:54:59 GMT 12
When Eric Medlen (John Force Racing) was killed in a testing accident two years ago, JFR and other teams did a huge amount of work around head restraints in drag-racing. Although Medlen's car hit the side-track armco at around 300mph, he had ALREADY suffered a massive head injury from vibration caused by tyre shake. His head moving backwards and forwards and side-to-side within the rollcage caused an injury known as Diffuse Axonal injury. There's a lot of detail in the link that follows, both concerning Medlen's accident and injury, and the measures that were undertaken to make Funny Cars safer. Is there any synergy between this and speedway? I'm no expert, so I'll put it out there, and let those who know more about these things make a judgment call. www.fastmachines.com/nhra/transcript-of-john-force-racing-teleconference/ |
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Post by Abb0 on Feb 2, 2009 18:56:10 GMT 12
When Eric Medlen (John Force Racing) was killed in a testing accident two years ago... Is it really two years ago!!! Wow, time goes by fast sometimes. |
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Rumney72R
Full Member
Go the Rebels!
Posts: 204
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Post by Rumney72R on Feb 2, 2009 19:30:42 GMT 12
Could it also be that cars are being built too strong? There seems to be less and less give in a chassis lately especially with the use of high tensile (sp?) steel becoming more and more common. Therefore in a big hit the car doesn't bend and the driver takes alot more of the pressure in the impact
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Post by Speedway Central (David) on Feb 2, 2009 19:58:48 GMT 12
Ask yourself when was the last time you saw a hit like Hampton's that put 2 drivers to sleep? The Answer never, and then ask yourself why? It's not rocket science. Shane Penn on Brian Johnson, one of the biggest hits i have ever seen. May have been 2000, when Shane Penn raced the Hickeys spare car, and contracted to Rotorua. Full bore at the end of the bend, and both drivers knocked out. Ended BJ's career. Sure was, i was standing right there |
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Post by Tony on Feb 3, 2009 5:57:16 GMT 12
Could it also be that cars are being built too strong? There seems to be less and less give in a chassis lately especially with the use of high tensile (sp?) steel becoming more and more common. Therefore in a big hit the car doesn't bend and the driver takes alot more of the pressure in the impact I seem to recall comment being made when Hampton (I think!)was ko'd at the Palmy Teams Champs two years ago when he was smashed into the pit gate - that the tri-rail was particularly rigid in the chassis dept, and that this might result in the transfer of the impact to the driver. Is this something that SNZ or any other concerned party has followed through? |
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Post by Action-Man on Feb 3, 2009 7:56:00 GMT 12
There's a lot of detail in the link that follows, both concerning Medlen's accident and injury, and the measures that were undertaken to make Funny Cars safer. Is there any synergy between this and speedway? I'm no expert, so I'll put it out there, and let those who know more about these things make a judgment call. www.fastmachines.com/nhra/transcript-of-john-force-racing-teleconference/ It's a thought provoking piece. I had to laugh though, because I wasn't sure what paragraph you were drawing the potential comparison to?. internet gossip providing nothing but negative results, or the need for statistics to be able to make educated assessment, in turn any adjustments required for the safety of the drivers. Both statements are true.  : There is a very loose comparison, unfortunately our ruling body is reactive, it would seem it has neither the money to investigate nor the protocols in place to make an informed assessment. Unfortunately it would also appear the drivers are crash test dummies until someone raises the question and makes enough noise to force an investigation. I do not no the answer to my question which it why I asked it, it was an observation. Read the responses & you can see there maybe some merit to the idea that seats are part of the problem, but is it the case? I don't wish to move towards debating Chassis rigidity or construction, my question was about the wings on seats and have they assisted in adding to the KO count of drivers on our contact classes?. reading back on the responses Increasing head aches, KO's from deno, Ward197p, Jordy77w, Mr Hickey wont use them. I'd say I'm not to far off the mark. Will SNZ do anything about it? is another question, I would like to think so, but I wont be holding my breath. Basil, re the racetec. comment I was fishing mate  Also keep in mind you don't have to be KO'ed to be doing damage, concussions, have many levels and can be just as serious as a knock out, in some cases worse because people don't realise. |
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Post by Tony on Feb 3, 2009 8:18:41 GMT 12
It's an interesting subject you've raised Old School, even if some in the speedway community might find it uncomfortable. You have to commend John Force for being so pro-active - then again, the loss of a team-mate must have been devastating, especially when his daughter was now driving one of the beasts.
There's both differences and similarities in what I posted last night - the big difference would be the amount of space inside a stockcar cockpit, and the lack of space inside the rollcage hoop of a dragster or funny car. But if you hone in on the head restraint part of a stockcar, there are definite similarities. Would added padding within the wings of a head restraint lessen the impact of helmet versus wing on a big shunt? Conversely, how much of a detrimental effect on head movement and vision would an extra layer of padding create? Would it make a stockcar impossible to drive?
As I said earlier, I've never driven a racecar, and probably never will. But as a fan of speedway, I believe that driver safety should be paramount, and would hate to see the sport exposed to further media scrutiny/condemnation due to another death or serious injury, especially if there was something that could be done to avoid it.
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