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Post by chris13w on Dec 1, 2009 22:51:46 GMT 12
I made some comments in a recent thread (Blenheim Weather) about a Honda CRX that raced in the Southern DHL - running a VTEC engine to a Quickchange diff - RWD style... First time I'd seen this done and I mentioned to the driver in the pits that I didn't think it was allowed?? "All in the rules" he said... So I checked it myself, and all the rules that I'm sure used to be there have gone - just says "Engine must be the same manufacturer and cylinder number". Gearbox has to be OEM and mounted to the engine Diff is free Nothing that says an Engine has to be mounted the same way as in the production version... or even that a V6 production car can't have a straight 6 engine in a Saloon... All radical stuff - and I actually think a very good idea that could completely open up Saloons to a lot of fresh vehicles - mostly Japanese - without having to be Rotaries!! (Sorry MRRX and all the other Rota fans)! So - has anyone got any comments that say this isn't correct and it can't be done??? (And there is obviously at least one car, 999D, Green sheeted and running as a Saloon - and going quite well too).  So if this is indeed correct there are a whole bunch of possible cars that can now be built - probably quite cheaply in many cases - a stepping stone up for Production Saloon racers maybe??? Rear wheel Drive conversions of: Honda VTEC into - CRX, Civic, Prelude Toyota twin cam into - Corolla, Celica, Curren Toyota V6 into - Camry Mitsubishi V6 into - Lancer, Galant, GTO Chrysler Valiant Hemi into the above?? (Chrysler were bought by Mitsubishi in Australia - and Daimler Chrysler also owned Mitsubishi) Nissan Skyline into - Maxima Ford Zetec into - Focus, Escort FWD, Mondeo, Telstar Ford V6 - or Falcon 6 into - Mondeo or Probe (US MX6 Mazda) Volvo 5 cylinder into Focus (standard in the RS Focus model - Ford own Volvo) Mazda - are also owned by Ford - so Falcon into 626 or MX6?! Mercedes V6 (or old straight 6) into Mitsubishi (Daimler/Chrysler again) BMW 4 cylinder (318Ti or even 4 cylinder M3) into - Mini Audi V6 into - Golf or Audi A4 Lots and lots of exciting, possible RWD combinations! So, thoughts on this - is it correct? If not, why not - rules don't say you can't?? |
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Post by strx7 on Dec 2, 2009 6:00:42 GMT 12
you could put a supra engine into a 01+ corolla body shape and call it a toyota blade master ( which had a v6 in it factory)
lots of possibilities for japanese power plants
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Post by Wingnut99 on Dec 2, 2009 7:22:26 GMT 12
Been in fairy land guys  engine to be fitted in original position! as soon as u turn it around its not in the original position some ppl use anything to get thier name in print |
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Post by japsuper on Dec 2, 2009 8:13:25 GMT 12
Hey Wingnut, go and get the current SNZ rulebook ( or go on to SNZ website) and tell us where it says that the engine must be run in the same configuration.
All it says is same no. of cylinders and engine from same manufacturer as the car.
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Post by Wingnut99 on Dec 2, 2009 8:36:53 GMT 12
engine configuation ----------?  what are u on about now?  configuation is about configuation in line 4 in line 6 v8 v10 thats configuation  |
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Post by The Observer on Dec 2, 2009 8:41:54 GMT 12
Heres the rulebook notes (v) (i) Front mounted engine to be fitted with leading spark plug as No 1 in line with or forward of axle centre line as drawn between stub axle centres. (ii) Rear mounted and mid mounted engine to be fitted with a spark plug behind the rear axle centre line. (iii) East west mounted engine (front or rear mounted) must remain in the original position as measured laterally within the body with a 25mm tolerance. (iv) North south mounted engine must be mounted centrally on the longitudinal axis of the body with a 25mm tolerance, no lateral offset permitted. (v) Any engine inspected and found to contravene the rules will be declared an illegal engine. Refer Section G11-3. Technical Exclusions Not sure if that provides any clarity? I must say, I like the idea oeing able to make FWD into RWD to encourage some variation and newer/different models of cars available to this class. That will generate a following for the class over and above the great work Steve Williams and the DHL supporters are donig. To me, the rules above relate too how far back the motor is allowed to go, and how offset(or inline) the motor must be. You can off course surf through the rules to find your own interpretation here www.speedway.co.nz/pdf/Rulebook/2009%20SNZ%20Rulebook.pdf and type in page 143 in adobe and it will take you straight to the saloon rules. |
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Post by The Observer on Dec 2, 2009 8:49:34 GMT 12
and of course, at the start of the rules the important bits
T11-2-2 Eligibility
(a) To be eligible, as a saloon, the vehicle referred to in T11-2-1
must have been manufactured within the last twenty (20) years.
(b) Any competitor has the right to apply to the Directors for
approval to race a make/model manufactured during or before
the last 20 years.
(c) For a car to be classified as a saloon, a minimum of 200 must
be produced by the manufacturer referred to in T11-2-1 (a). The
responsibility lies with the competitor for proof.
(d) Any production vehicle complying with rules T11-2-1 (a) & T11-2-2
(b) must have been manufactured with seating for at least two
occupants to be eligible. Convertibles are not allowed.
(e) V8 engines over 3015cc (184cu in) to be no more than 2 valves
per cylinder.
(f) The use of Carbon Fibre materials is prohibited
[glow=red,2,300](g) Engines must be derived from original manufacture and the
number of cylinders that were originally fitted in that make and
model.[/glow]
Would not appear to me to say "engine must be fitted as it was originally in that car"
As an aside, how did the CRX go - I can;t imagine it having the power to compete anyway?
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 8:55:41 GMT 12
engine configuation ----------? what are u on about now? configuation is about configuation in line 4 in line 6 v8 v10 thats configuation It doesn't say any such thing: T11-2-2 Eligibility (g) Engines must be derived from original manufacture and the number of cylinders that were originally fitted in that make and model. So it has to be the same "Manufacturer" (and so many are related now that can cover a LOT of different makes) and number of cylinders, the word configuration never comes up at all. And nothing specifically says the engine has to be mounted in the same direction as the OEM vehicle - and again I quote 999D that has been Green sheeted and is running as a Saloon! I was sceptical too - but it all seems to be true - and I think that's a good thing! |
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Post by Admin on Dec 2, 2009 8:59:51 GMT 12
I've tried reading up on this myself and came to the same conclusion as The Observer .
I suspect the intent is for the engine layout to remain as factory produced but the rule book doesn't actually say that .
Loopholes are there for the exploiting of .
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 9:01:04 GMT 12
you could put a supra engine into a 01+ corolla body shape and call it a toyota blade master ( which had a v6 in it factory) lots of possibilities for japanese power plants Never heard of it - but then it doesn't surprise me - just about everything in Japan gets a V6 stuffed into it at some stage!!! Here are a couple of other nice looking ones I thought of this morning: Mitsubishi FTO with a 3.5 Mitsi V6 Holden V6 into Vectra or Calibra body (Calibra would be sexy - like a little DTM Touring car)! galeria.forocoches.com/data/500/30051CALIBRA.jpgFalcon 6 into Jaguar X Type (which is a Ford Mondeo basically) |
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 9:07:30 GMT 12
I've tried reading up on this myself and came to the same conclusion as The Observer . I suspect the intent is for the engine layout to remain as factory produced but the rule book doesn't actually say that . Loopholes are there for the exploiting of . I agree, I don't know that this is intentional (or maybe it was???) I think its a side effect of the splitting of the rules - but I think its a VERY GOOD SIDE EFFECT!!! As it means lots of good cars can be built reasonably cost effectively - not going to beat the supposed $70K MEGA Saloon's - but they will go well enough and give a lot of people a step up they can afford. Well done SNZ! |
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 9:11:29 GMT 12
As an aside, how did the CRX go - I can;t imagine it having the power to compete anyway? I only saw the Blenheim DHL, which to be fair was a shocking track... The CRX was going OK - was running 3rd in the B Main when it lost its right front tyre, so if not for that it would have qualified for the final 20. Don't think it did all the rounds and don't know how well it went at other tracks - but then it may also be new and still being dialed in - I think it showed a lot of potential and certainly wasn't being embarrassed by the V8's and Ford 6 Mustangs. (In fact way better than some of them)! |
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Post by Wingnut99 on Dec 2, 2009 9:12:47 GMT 12
for ppl living under rocks
T11-2-1 -b- if not written it cant be done
T11-2-3 -p- water pump position
T11-2-17 transmission - says u can use one - doesnt say you can modify a fwd trany to accept a rwd driveshaft - if not written it cant be done
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 9:29:21 GMT 12
for ppl living under rocks T11-2-1 -b- if not written it cant be done T11-2-3 -p- water pump position T11-2-17 transmission - says u can use one - doesn't say you can modify a fwd trany to accept a rwd driveshaft - if not written it cant be done T11-2-1-b doesn't cover it - as you ARE complying with everything written T11-2-3-p is specific to the water pump relative to the engine - not the orientation in the car (means no remote pump) T11-2-17 has no relevance - just says basically OEM gearbox mounted to the engine and that they CAN be swapped And I quote again - 999D Green sheeted by an SNZ official and running as a Saloon - so its obviously accepted by SNZ or it wouldn't be on the track! |
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Post by Wingnut99 on Dec 2, 2009 9:42:31 GMT 12
[quote author=chris13w board=general thread=13367 post=153741 time=1259702961
[/quote]
T11-2-1-b doesn't cover it - as you ARE complying with everything written
- so its obviously accepted by SNZ or it wouldn't be on the track![/quote]
sorry i didnt realize you had such narrow blinkers
read all of 11-2-1-b
only mods specifically mention are approved.....
turning the engine around is a modification ...
removing front wheel drive driveshafts is a modification ...
adding a rwd driveshaft is a modification.....
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Post by escort2 on Dec 2, 2009 10:01:15 GMT 12
fail.
Mitsi FTO.
vectra, calibra
and the jag.
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 10:17:01 GMT 12
fail. Mitsi FTO. vectra, calibra and the jag. Huh?? |
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Post by Wingnut99 on Dec 2, 2009 10:50:54 GMT 12
now i do know u dont read the rule book
11-12-1 says that you must run colours ;D
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 11:18:05 GMT 12
darn... it does! You must love reading that book Wingnut  |
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Post by chris13w on Dec 2, 2009 11:19:09 GMT 12
Is it just my computer - or has this page gone all distorted with where the posts end up on the screen? ? |
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