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Post by Brett85p on Jan 15, 2010 15:55:05 GMT 12
I believe a Sprintcar at Ruapuna was excluded several years ago due to his number being 2mm undersize - result of a protest following the last race. If that is the case I am sure most drivers that are well versed in the rule book could get the entire field excluded on similar technicalities! |
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Post by Stevo on Jan 15, 2010 16:05:42 GMT 12
Therein lies the crux of the matter - no matter how silly or outdated some rules appear to be, if you don't comply, you leave yourself wide open. To use the example of 7p as illustrated, if I was a competitor at a championship and the car raced as it is in the photo, I would be well within my rights to protest him out of it and SNZ would have to uphold the protest. Whilst it might seem to be a bit pedantic to protest a competitor over something as minor as a number, if it made the difference between carrying 1NZ or 2NZ on my car for the next 12 months, I would have to look seriously at doing it.
At the end of the day, rules are rules and everybody should abide by them, no matter weather you are Mr Famous So and So, or Mr Jack Nobody Knows running around on his local track.
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Post by mrmadtaylor on Jan 15, 2010 20:27:32 GMT 12
Therein lies the crux of the matter - no matter how silly or outdated some rules appear to be, if you don't comply, you leave yourself wide open. To use the example of 7p as illustrated, if I was a competitor at a championship and the car raced as it is in the photo, I would be well within my rights to protest him out of it and SNZ would have to uphold the protest. Whilst it might seem to be a bit pedantic to protest a competitor over something as minor as a number, if it made the difference between carrying 1NZ or 2NZ on my car for the next 12 months, I would have to look seriously at doing it. At the end of the day, rules are rules and everybody should abide by them, no matter weather you are Mr Famous So and So, or Mr Jack Nobody Knows running around on his local track. This is what I was thinking when I started the post. |
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Post by wayne on Jan 15, 2010 22:42:44 GMT 12
Maybe a refund of $600 from SNZ will help. Whats the point of electronic lapscoring then? So we know how fast a lap you did? When I raced at Knoxville there were 7 number 11 cars......they had no scoring issues there. I think we need to look at the big picture here and its not number sizes or colours.....its 2010 lets get with the program. If the blue box is crap get AMB (which maybe they should have in the first place). you ever been a race secretary or timing person? |
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Post by eddiek on Jan 15, 2010 23:09:44 GMT 12
Whilst it might seem to be a bit pedantic to protest a competitor over something as minor as a number, if it made the difference between carrying 1NZ or 2NZ on my car for the next 12 months, I would have to look seriously at doing it. And if the protest was upheld and you became 1NZ as a result, would it feel like a deserved victory? Fair enough if its a serious breach of the rules and most would do it with the support of their fans. But over a number on a wing? I believe that most of the fans would view that as being a hollow victory. |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on Jan 15, 2010 23:42:38 GMT 12
... To use the example of 7p as illustrated, if I was a competitor at a championship and the car raced as it is in the photo, I would be well within my rights to protest him out of it and SNZ would have to uphold the protest. Whilst it might seem to be a bit pedantic unsportsmanlike to protest a competitor over something as minor as a number, if it made the difference between carrying 1NZ or 2NZ on my car for the next 12 months, I would have to look seriously at doing it.
You are within your rights, perhaps, BUT it appears some folk believe adjudicators have to penalise to the degree a competitor would lose an NZ1 success.
It may well be your protest is upheld, but equally may well be, the penalty applied, if any, might have no impact on a specific race / championship outcome. Could be a fine.
By the way, it seems 7p doesn't want to risk a protest, as a number was definetly on his wing in Rotorua last night!  |
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Post by Teams Junkie on Jan 16, 2010 6:57:13 GMT 12
Guess we better get the tape measure out to beat him ;D ;D
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Post by Abb0 on Jan 16, 2010 8:18:56 GMT 12
Maybe there needs to be Category 1 rules and Category 2 rules.
Category 1 Rules:
Must be adhered to. No exceptions, no warnings. If someone is breaking these rules they know it and they're doing it to cheat. These rules would cover things like engine displacement etc. Rules that keep it equal for everyone and those that concern safety.
Penalties would be fix it or trailer it. If a car is found to have broken the rules after a race (e.g. under protest) disqualification is the result.
Category 2 Rules:
This would cover size/colours of numbers, body shapes and the myriad of other things that won't directly affect the performance of the racecar or safety.
Penalties could be something along the lines of when the offense is discovered then a warning is given along with a period of time (say two weeks?) to fix it. If, after that period of time has expired, the issue still has not been fixed then a second warning along with a shorter period of time (say one week) to fix it. If the offense has still not been addressed then the car is stopped from racing and a fine imposed.
Rules are rules although not all rules are equal. But, if they are rules then they need to be enforced.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 16, 2010 9:20:21 GMT 12
Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you're suggesting the car gets protested to SNZ officials, losing its title because of a non-performance enhancing technicality, something other SNZ officials at various tracks (P, HB an d R at least) should have already picked up at green-sheeting and vehicle checking.......
The hard done by driver could probably then protest to SNZ HQ for not following due process. That sort of appeal normally succeeds, and we're back to square one.
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Post by Stevo on Jan 16, 2010 9:56:04 GMT 12
And there lies the other part of the problem - officials not doing their job properly in the first instance that then has an effect on the competitor further into the season, when it really counts.
I would never lodge a protest for something as trivial as a number (there are some out there who would), but it does show up what could happen if someone doesn't do their job properly.
Having said that though, the competitor must still carry resposibility as well, or does he build and race his car without looking at a rule book?
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Post by Abb0 on Jan 16, 2010 10:15:55 GMT 12
Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!! So you're suggesting the car gets protested to SNZ officials, losing its title because of a non-performance enhancing technicality, something other SNZ officials at various tracks (P, HB an d R at least) should have already picked up at green-sheeting and vehicle checking....... The hard done by driver could probably then protest to SNZ HQ for not following due process. That sort of appeal normally succeeds, and we're back to square one. If the violation is at the lower level and the driver has been warned several times and he/she continues to disregard the warnings then yes, they should lose the win. If the violation is a Category 1 then it is performance enhancing. It shouldn't matter if it's found after the race is run or not. Ok, a safety violation isn't performance enhancing. Maybe Category 2 could address safety concerns and Category 3 rules are the lower level violations. All I was suggesting is that maybe all rules shouldn't come under one heading. That there could be different tiers of rules carrying different consequences for violations. I think we'd all agree that a number missing, or the wrong size, shouldn't lose someone a 1nz... unless they've been warned multiple times in the past and they have ignored those warnings. |
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Post by BarryB on Jan 16, 2010 10:34:17 GMT 12
or does he build and race his car without looking at a rule book? You'd have to suspect many of them do, yeah ;D ;D ;D I guess as most don't build their own engines, and have to trust their engine builder, not many would sign write their own cars either. While a competitor is ultimately responsible for both his car and his crew, it's pretty bloody frustrating when spectators can pick up things supposedly trained officials don't. In saying that, some spectators a biased, picky and finicky beyond belief, and will study one car to the n'th degree, while the officials can have 150+ cars to check in an hour or two. I wish some people could just learn to enjoy what we have, just that little bit more. |
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Post by busterbell on Jan 16, 2010 11:46:26 GMT 12
numbers (in the stockcar class anyway) are one of the more simple rules to understand, with good descriptions, and measurements given.
just to use the 7p as a example, it clearly states in the book that a number must be on the wing on both sides.
how hard is that??
its just lazy, and im sure some competitors use there status (in fact i know) to not take the time to bother to comply.
it bothers me that some on this board see it as pedantic if a driver does not comply with any particular rule in the rule book, however small it may be. which in itself should be easy to fix and comply with.
what bothers me more thou is that these small rule infringements are passing cvi's and scrutineering.
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Post by BarryB on Jan 16, 2010 11:55:58 GMT 12
what bothers me more thou is that these small rule infringements are passing cvi's and scrutineering. Exactly...............and I think if people have been issued multiple warnings, and have done nothing to rectify it, they should be stopped from competing in said meeting, NOT disqualified after the fact having taken somebody compliant out of the contest. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 12:06:23 GMT 12
In my mind a rule is a rule no category, no level its just a plain simple rule, written down for all to see and understand.
Or are we going to have several rule books based on category rules or level rules?
Come on....a rule is a rule no matter what class you race, and if you turn up to the track with an illegal car (no matter how small the infringement) then you are rightly so open to protest.
Its an open shut case to me, read the rulebook, its your obligation as a competitor to read and understand, follow the rules like everyone else in your class and you wont have any problems come race night.
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Post by busterbell on Jan 16, 2010 12:14:39 GMT 12
Its an open shut case to me, read the rulebook, its your obligation as a competitor to read and understand, follow the rules like everyone else in your class and you wont have any problems come race night. unfortunately its not as easy as that. yes some rules are simple such as numbers for eg, others are rather complex and are left wide open for different interpretations. |
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Post by Bulletfan on Jan 16, 2010 12:26:09 GMT 12
`well i c penn had nice big number on his wing so maybe he been reading ya thread lolololo
as for the joblins there numbers are cool very nice looking cars
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 12:27:04 GMT 12
Well I see the solution to the problem.....work on the rules to eliminate interpretation and simplify things.
I thought having a rulebook was to provide clear concise and understandable language.
It seems the rulebook and rules have been a big problem in this sport for many years now judging on what people including competitors post on this forum.
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Post by alloyplatypus on Jan 16, 2010 13:16:46 GMT 12
I dont think Shane would have had an issue due to protest and be excluded from a meeting (unless he tied with Wayne Hemi, and Hemi had clutch issues  ), but i could definitely see him rocking up to another track and being told he has to rectify it to be scrutineered or no racing. I think that has happened to most of us that have raced at one time or another. SNZ reps interpretations vary from track to track.. and year to year. |
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Post by busterbell on Jan 16, 2010 14:42:06 GMT 12
week to week even  |
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), but i could definitely see him rocking up to another track and being told he has to rectify it to be scrutineered or no racing. I think that has happened to most of us that have raced at one time or another. SNZ reps interpretations vary from track to track.. and year to year.
