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Post by mike616 on Jun 30, 2013 9:50:50 GMT 12
Problem is oem ecu's can be tweeked, that's why SNZ computers would be essential. Yes will cost but easier to monitor. EVERY ecu can be tweaked - its just a question of how hard it is to do so. Why should injected cars have such a hard line limit on the ability to tweak things when a carby engine doesn't anyway? that's not giving them a level playing field! that's penalizing the driver because his engine doesn't have a carb!! There is no performance advantage, there is simply a safety advantage and a reliability advantage - when will people get it in thier heads? the carb was only super-seeded by the reliability and fuel economy of modern injection - that is the reason cars are made with injection now. The manufacturers reasons have got nothing to do with how much performance you can get out of injection - the only added performance is in the low rpm range that our stockcars will only ever use in the pits or during a red light!! and since Im typing this I do know of a way to run an oem ecu without chipping it and without adding anything. the answer is all in the wiring. I dont know where you get all your facts from but if you brought a standard carby engine Just say a xf 6 and compared it to an injected engine eg El falcon, there is a huge difference in power. My engine when it was injected was approx 150 kw. Now take all the injection, fuel system, computer out of it, replace with a fuel pump, carby and dizzy makes my engine 115kw. Go figure .... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 11:48:06 GMT 12
EVERY ecu can be tweaked - its just a question of how hard it is to do so. Why should injected cars have such a hard line limit on the ability to tweak things when a carby engine doesn't anyway? that's not giving them a level playing field! that's penalizing the driver because his engine doesn't have a carb!! There is no performance advantage, there is simply a safety advantage and a reliability advantage - when will people get it in thier heads? the carb was only super-seeded by the reliability and fuel economy of modern injection - that is the reason cars are made with injection now. The manufacturers reasons have got nothing to do with how much performance you can get out of injection - the only added performance is in the low rpm range that our stockcars will only ever use in the pits or during a red light!! and since Im typing this I do know of a way to run an oem ecu without chipping it and without adding anything. the answer is all in the wiring. I dont know where you get all your facts from but if you brought a standard carby engine Just say a xf 6 and compared it to an injected engine eg El falcon, there is a huge difference in power. My engine when it was injected was approx 150 kw. Now take all the injection, fuel system, computer out of it, replace with a fuel pump, carby and dizzy makes my engine 115kw. Go figure .... your comparing engines that are over 6 years apart, the block is different, the head is totally different and the ignition system is different. of course there will be a difference in power. and again - your engine had, im guessing, an injection system, an electronic ignition system and a computer to keep it running properly... youve taken out the ignition system it was designed for, taken off the injection system that was designed for it and put on a carb, with a restrictor plate to lower the power it makes and a dizzy from a car that was built years before - are you really surprised that you have less power? we arent helping the sport by putting gear from old engines onto new ones. without the restrictor plate you would have alot more power - and with the correct ignition system you would have more power as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 12:09:44 GMT 12
your comparing engines that are over 6 years apart, the block is different, the head is totally different and the ignition system is different. of course there will be a difference in power. and again - your engine had, im guessing, an injection system, an electronic ignition system and a computer to keep it running properly... youve taken out the ignition system it was designed for, taken off the injection system that was designed for it and put on a carb, with a restrictor plate to lower the power it makes and a dizzy from a car that was built years before - are you really surprised that you have less power? we arent helping the sport by putting gear from old engines onto new ones. without the restrictor plate you would have alot more power - and with the correct ignition system you would have more power as well. That is exactly what im saying injection has more power compared to carby. You said in an earlier post there was no power difference between them and now i have proved you wrong you are now saying there is.. Its like smashing your head against a brick wall. I also said what i had done and i wasnt surprised at all that i had less power with my engine and that will always be the case when we are installing old parts on more modern engines. The only substitute for that is spending alot of money ( on head, carb, snz computer) dude - read ALL of what i said, the difference is that you have taken parts from an engine designed to only have 100kw or so and put them on an engine designed to have alot more, then you put on a restrictor plate which limits what the carb can give anyway. your problem is not the carb - its the ignition system from an old engine and the restrictor plate limiting what the carb can give! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 12:16:30 GMT 12
by the way- im guessing you had an ea intake modified for the carb? ea engines are only rated at 120kw anyway so your also limited by the intake if you have that one.
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Post by tank11 on Jun 30, 2013 13:36:23 GMT 12
Matter of fact is you are both right.......
The newer motors will be (say) 150kw standard, then restricted with SNZ restrictor plate, but with the efi intake you won't lose so much (as compared to the old ef intake)and the proper ignition works as it is designed.
I suspect a gain of only 5-10kw from the average stock car motor (not the top cars), which will bring the back of the field forward with less expense than before converting new model motors with old parts to be legal.
Would we get 20kw, I hope so.
Maybe Scott F. could tell us.
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Post by rustytim on Jun 30, 2013 19:03:40 GMT 12
Mike 616. You are comparing an XF engine with XF inlet, restrictor plate, xf 2 wire dissy and then wanting to put it beside an AU engine with electronic ignition, injectors, ecu, and no restrictor plate. Of course the AU is going to put out more power. Its got an extra 10 years of development behind it and no restrictor plate.
It would be more interesting to know the output difference on a dyno of an AU engine straight out of a road car but with an SNZ restrictor plate in the air intake and SNZ injected computer. Then go and remove the inlet and put on a modified AU carby inlet with say a 350 holley still running ignition system run by SNZ computer. Then we are comparing apples with apples same engine, same ignition, same ecu (with or without injection bit) same dyno (not a Ford advertsing brochure). I would happily put money down saying the difference would not be the 24% kw difference you are claiming (150 vs 115)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 19:13:48 GMT 12
To have a carb you have to have a restrictor plate so its considered part of dont you think. I give up, trying to talk to some people is just pathetic. You seem to know it all and find a way to try and prove everybody wrong. wrong, you originally said that carbs made less power than injection - a restrictor plate is designed to limit the power any engine can create regardless of fuel/air delivery method... your restrictor plate is therefore the problem... and tuning if you are truly getting only 115kw... and by the way - Im a ford man, I love working on ford engines and have done a F&^K TON of research into the topic.. so actually I DO know what I am talking about. what I am trying to say is this - it is not the carb that has caused the power loss... you are using an ignition system rated for only 111kw anyway {just looked it up on wikipedia} and then to make matters worse your adding a restrictor plate thats designed to LIMIT your performance!! THAT is the problem!! |
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Post by nogrip-31gm on Jun 30, 2013 19:15:30 GMT 12
by the way- im guessing you had an ea intake modified for the carb? ea engines are only rated at 120kw anyway so your also limited by the intake if you have that one. how do the EA manifolds get modified? mine is still standard and has a 500 holley sitting on it... and you can tune a carb to get plenty of power out of these motors...even the 2 barrel webber of a xf will get good power if tuned correctly. injection only smoothes out the power curve and uses less fuel. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 21:04:26 GMT 12
by the way- im guessing you had an ea intake modified for the carb? ea engines are only rated at 120kw anyway so your also limited by the intake if you have that one. how do the EA manifolds get modified? mine is still standard and has a 500 holley sitting on it... and you can tune a carb to get plenty of power out of these motors...even the 2 barrel webber of a xf will get good power if tuned correctly. injection only smoothes out the power curve and uses less fuel. most cars I have seen have a two barrel carb on an ea manifold - but the bolts dont actually line up with all types of two barrel carbs so the bolt holes are modified to fit the carb. |
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Post by nogrip-31gm on Jun 30, 2013 21:45:54 GMT 12
mine has a bolt on adaptor, nothing has been modified at all.
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Post by tank11 on Jul 1, 2013 8:31:30 GMT 12
I like Rustytim's idea, if someone with an AU had one to do it.
Otherwise we seem to be going around in circles here and starting to get personal.
I like the idea of going injected, safer, easier to maintain, cheaper overall and could pick up a wrecker if travelling away to keep racing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 13:44:45 GMT 12
just as a small point ...someone said an ecu can be tweeked, yes.. in fact if you purchase the snz computer you can buy the gear to set it up and set your own curve etc....cant remember how much Hartley's said it was, but a multiple of hundies over the purchase price... run through your lap top etc etc
(posted in case that info takes the ecu aspect out of the argument for some readers...)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 16:30:54 GMT 12
That was me Zitadel, I like Rustytims idea too - maybe some one SHOULD do a dyno comparison... might even shut up the nay sayers... though I doubt that.
I would myself, but since im building a saloon and cant afford more than one car project I cant do it.
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Post by scotty 911w on Jul 1, 2013 17:52:26 GMT 12
ill stick my std au efi saloon on a dyno if someone wants to pay for it:)
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Post by tank11 on Jul 1, 2013 19:38:04 GMT 12
ill stick my std au efi saloon on a dyno if someone wants to pay for it:) Can we then stick a el intake and 350 holley and also standard dizzy on it Scotty? |
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Post by tank11 on Jul 1, 2013 19:38:46 GMT 12
Or better still in stages.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 19:59:47 GMT 12
why a standard dizzy?
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Post by nogrip-31gm on Jul 1, 2013 20:01:09 GMT 12
as found in most budget set ups
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Post by tank11 on Jul 1, 2013 20:04:16 GMT 12
To show gains from a to z.............el (carbed etc)- au (injected, snz/oem ecu etc)
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Post by tank11 on Jul 1, 2013 20:05:55 GMT 12
ill stick my std au efi saloon on a dyno if someone wants to pay for it:) I'll put up $500, prefer someone like Nelson Hartley to be involved. |
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