From the Referee, (clearing a few things up.) (Read 5,349 times)

[Admin]

I have just spoken with Rod McNaughton the senior Ref there on the weekend and when the call went up about a possible rolled car he was trying to see through the smoke onto the front straight for it when all the time the rolled car was on the back straight. He certainly feels bad about it.

Rod was officiating from the old race control building in pit bend so actually wasn't hindered from the back straight by the smoke.
I imagine the smoke meant he was concentrating on what had become a potentially dangerous part of the track and incorrectly assumed the incident would be there. It's a mistake I could see myself making.

The Carl Ross pass on the grass against Wellington was another he managed to miss, he just didn't see it and thus couldn't rule on it.

Those were the two main instances missed over the course of the two nights but they need balancing against all the ones that were seen and various actions taken. Team managers/drivers were spoken to several times in an attempt to keep things on an even keel.
Of course the ultimate penalty given was the penalty against the Panthers via Shane Penn for a pole line indiscretion in the final. I think the pass is visible in the Mentl1's video right at the end.
The ref would have had a far better angle on it though.
macgor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=videos&action=display&thread=25372

Hope that clears up some of the incidents etc. from the referee's side of things. It would have been good if the commentators had conveyed some of the official happenings to the crowd.
As has been the way for quite a while now Rod is clearly happy to communicate and as someone from the other side of the fence I am appreciative of that.

[BarryB]

Mar 12, 2012 11:11:37 GMT 12 Admin said:

It would have been good if the commentators had conveyed some of the official happenings to the crowd.
As has been the way for quite a while now Rod is clearly happy to communicate and as someone from the other side of the fence I am appreciative of that.

Have had a chat with Rod myself today too, and he - like several other senior SNZ officials these days - is only too happy to get this sort of information out to the public once the drivers have been dealt with. He went and saw the WP commentators on Friday before racing commenced, offering to make such information available over the two nights, but was basically turned away. Some of the gripes on this Discussion Board over the past 3-4 days may not have occurred if everybody was slightly better informed. That was the reason behind me posting the rules also, something I'll try and remember to do BEFORE each big teams meeting in future.

A big thanks to Kerry Remnant for clearing up a few things yesterday too.

[grant]

This video shows it clearly at 5.15 in

[Admin]

Mar 12, 2012 13:42:02 GMT 12 grant said:

This video shows it clearly at 5.15 in

Ref , was spot on.

[splinta67]

The ref was spot on but there is a few one eyed people on here that still wont agree with it

[Mal]

Looking at the video of the final, yes the ref got it right. But to be fair, and I am a staunch Wanderers and Kings supporter, it did look like Penn had just misjudged a hit on the Waikato car. That is what took him across the pole line, and so pretty unlucky for him. But that just my opinion.

[Admin]

Mar 12, 2012 14:36:14 GMT 12 Mal said:

Looking at the video of the final, yes the ref got it right. But to be fair, and I am a staunch Wanderers and Kings supporter, it did look like Penn had just misjudged a hit on the Waikato car. That is what took him across the pole line, and so pretty unlucky for him. But that just my opinion.

I don't think anyone would be saying Penn cheated , just didn't pan out right for him in the heat of battle.

[BarryB]

Mar 12, 2012 14:36:14 GMT 12 Mal said:

Looking at the video of the final, yes the ref got it right. But to be fair, and I am a staunch Wanderers and Kings supporter, it did look like Penn had just misjudged a hit on the Waikato car. That is what took him across the pole line, and so pretty unlucky for him. But that just my opinion.

I haven't watched it (the video) yet, and also wasn't there, but I believe Shane was a lap up so could have/should have circled around before rejoining, and may have still made the line in first place. Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight and no adrenalin pumping and the finish line in sight.......

[pallmall]

Interesting that there did not appear to be a SNZ official on the outside of the track other than the old race control and on the clubroom steps. Neither gives a great view especially of the exit to Cemetary bend. There were lots of bodies on the infield, but that is not ideal either and much can be missed.
I don't know why they don't have another official up on top of the lap scoring container, it would probably be the best seat in the house.

I guess the commentators rejected the SNZ input because they sadly just plain wouldn't be able to understand it.

[wal86]

the video shows it clearly at 5.15 alright .And also at 1.00 when an H car crossed the pole line in the same spot.

[Ford Prefect]

pretty easy to understand why ppl get upset when 1 from each team is guilty of the same crime in the same spot and only 1 gets punished....................maybe that need some extra sets of eyes out there for the big meets so that this sort of thing can be minimised

[acevantura]

After watching this I thought the bigger poll line infringement was on pens second lap as shown here at the 0.35 mark;

[percy]

So many issues to talk about here, hope I don't forget one of them because I've counted to about 2,000 before posting this!

I like what the Rotorua club has done regarding communicating officiating. They last couple of times I've been down there they have conveyed to the fans what was said in drivers briefing. It really helps to understand and interpret the racing.

I'm not surprised referee Rod McNaughton missed the Dale Robertson/Karl Ross incident. He was probably the best part of 150 meters away. Surely there must have been another official closer to the action who could make a call? It was not a hard call to make.

I also don't understand why officials don't make use on viewing areas outside the track to advantage their viewpoint. Waikaraka has one of the best viewpoints in the country from that main grandstand, send someone up there. By the way the aforementioned incident was not the only incident in that corner in that race (or the warmup!) that should have been of interest to the officials.

What I still struggle to understand is the lack of consistency across the weekend. Why pull up one incident in the final when indiscretions were occuring all weekend? I'm sure Rod didn't miss everything!

Barry B's posting of the rules make for interesting reading. The relevant rules depending on your interpretation of various incidents are as follows:

(c) A competitor forced infield must give way once pushed over the pole line and return to the race once the track is clear.
Passing inside the pole line will attract either a fine and/or the
team may be excluded. The infield is not for racing, any
vehicles on the infield must disengage from contact and return
to the track in the same corner or straight from which they left
the track.

(e) Any competitor deliberately driving infield (to avoid oncoming
cars) for a sanctuary (to gain advantage) will attract a fine on
the driver, or the driver may be excluded.

It is clear to me that an official does not have the authority to issue warnings, nor can an official make a 1 place relegation as has been suggested was the outcome in the final. The available penalties are clear.

In the instance of rule c) either a fine and/or team exclusion and in the instance of rule e) either a fine or driver exclusion which in this instance would effectively see the Palmy team excluded as Shane Penn was the only driver left in the race.

The rules as they stand take discretion away from the officials. There are no warnings, there is no "we'll exclude you next time". It's a case of you break the rule, you are either fined or excluded. Regardless of personal opinion that is the way the rules read.

In the absence of any alternative information, that Penn was the only exclusion/relegation all weekend is absurd given what happened on track and how the rules are written.

I just hope that what happened is not swept under the carpet and that we think about how we can improve in the future. Because our competitors and fans deserve better.

[fonzy]

Mar 12, 2012 13:42:02 GMT 12 grant said:

This video shows it clearly at 5.15 in

Penn also uses the grass on the same corner at about 2.20 and then Rees cuts the pole on the very next corner to nail Wootten which in turn put Miers up the wall

[peter46s]

Mar 12, 2012 16:35:06 GMT 12 percy said:

So many issues to talk about here, hope I don't forget one of them because I've counted to about 2,000 before posting this!

I like what the Rotorua club has done regarding communicating officiating. They last couple of times I've been down there they have conveyed to the fans what was said in drivers briefing. It really helps to understand and interpret the racing.

I'm not surprised referee Rod McNaughton missed the Dale Robertson/Karl Ross incident. He was probably the best part of 150 meters away. Surely there must have been another official closer to the action who could make a call? It was not a hard call to make.

I also don't understand why officials don't make use on viewing areas outside the track to advantage their viewpoint. Waikaraka has one of the best viewpoints in the country from that main grandstand, send someone up there. By the way the aforementioned incident was not the only incident in that corner in that race (or the warmup!) that should have been of interest to the officials.

What I still struggle to understand is the lack of consistency across the weekend. Why pull up one incident in the final when indiscretions were occuring all weekend? I'm sure Rod didn't miss everything!

Barry B's posting of the rules make for interesting reading. The relevant rules depending on your interpretation of various incidents are as follows:

(c) A competitor forced infield must give way once pushed over the pole line and return to the race once the track is clear.
Passing inside the pole line will attract either a fine and/or the
team may be excluded. The infield is not for racing, any
vehicles on the infield must disengage from contact and return
to the track in the same corner or straight from which they left
the track.

(e) Any competitor deliberately driving infield (to avoid oncoming
cars) for a sanctuary (to gain advantage) will attract a fine on
the driver, or the driver may be excluded.

It is clear to me that an official does not have the authority to issue warnings, nor can an official make a 1 place relegation as has been suggested was the outcome in the final. The available penalties are clear.

In the instance of rule c) either a fine and/or team exclusion and in the instance of rule e) either a fine or driver exclusion which in this instance would effectively see the Palmy team excluded as Shane Penn was the only driver left in the race.

The rules as they stand take discretion away from the officials. There are no warnings, there is no "we'll exclude you next time". It's a case of you break the rule, you are either fined or excluded. Regardless of personal opinion that is the way the rules read.

In the absence of any alternative information, that Penn was the only exclusion/relegation all weekend is absurd given what happened on track and how the rules are written.

I just hope that what happened is not swept under the carpet and that we think about how we can improve in the future. Because our competitors and fans deserve better.

im with you on this one percy ,gee wiz's yes he did but video also shows waikato up ? high price to pay ,and a long reflective drive home .may be its just me and will cop a few for this but for me 3 or 4 laps two cars against one ?? ;D

[wal86]

maybe it is time we bring the drums back and tyre's buried on the pole line corners

[Admin]

or perhaps a pole line along the lines of what is in the video

[pfloyd]

rule c and e that have been quoted say the driver MAY be excluded not WILL. That says to me that the referee DOES have discretion to issue a warning. In my opinion it therefore comes down to how hard the officials want to police poleline cutting, what the teams are told at their briefing and then being consistant in their application of that ruling for the entire meeting not just the last and deciding race. At 5.15 on the video Penn clearly cuts the line and the call (although annoying for this panthers supporter) is correct but was it consistant ? I agree with Mal - there appears to be a clear intent to give the waikato car a friendly tap but misjudged and the rest is history.

[Graeme Mead]

Mar 12, 2012 18:41:23 GMT 12 Admin said:

or perhaps a pole line along the lines of what is in the video

I got as many of those big tyres as you need, just need to pick them up............a stock car wont shift them

[BarryB]

Mar 12, 2012 16:44:10 GMT 12 fonzy said:

Mar 12, 2012 13:42:02 GMT 12 grant said:

This video shows it clearly at 5.15 in

Penn also uses the grass on the same corner at about 2.20 and then Rees cuts the pole on the very next corner to nail Wootten which in turn put Miers up the wall

Rees cuts the pole line to nail Wootton? I think you'll find Wootton was well and truly over the pole before Rees, and with Rees chasing him by following his line. I'd also have said the Huntly car was further across the kerb than Rees was. And I'm also sure Rees' eyes would have beeen glued to the rear of Wootton's car, he wouldn't have been even able to see the pole line himself. Go back and take a second look at the footage.......

I can certainly see why somebody suggested Rees had got confused and was racing for Waikato again. Bengston and Miers must have been wondering ;D

No Scott Joblin on the second night?