Les
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Posts: 190
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Post by Les on Aug 11, 2015 6:38:21 GMT 12
Can anyone clarify what type of extinguishers we are meant to carry? Here's the rule, I don't see the type the competitor is required to provide, only the club. And it would be Murphy's law you buy one type and they'll want you to have the other.
S2-2-2 Pit Area Equipment
(a) At all meetings and practices, the following extinguishers must be
provided at a central position in the Pit Area
(i) One 9kg Dry Powder extinguisher
(ii) One 3kg Carbon Dioxide type extinguisher
(b) These extinguishers are to be mounted on a distinctively marked panel, with free access to all drivers, pit crews and officials from at least 15 minutes before the commencement of the
meeting/practice.
(c) All competing vehicles to carry their own fire extinguisher as part
of their "pit area" equipment. Compliance will be verified at
green sheeting
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Yard
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Posts: 126
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Post by Yard on Aug 11, 2015 9:21:29 GMT 12
Can anyone clarify what type of extinguishers we are meant to carry? Here's the rule, I don't see the type the competitor is required to provide, only the club. And it would be Murphy's law you buy one type and they'll want you to have the other. S2-2-2 Pit Area Equipment (a) At all meetings and practices, the following extinguishers must be provided at a central position in the Pit Area (i) One 9kg Dry Powder extinguisher (ii) One 3kg Carbon Dioxide type extinguisher (b) These extinguishers are to be mounted on a distinctively marked panel, with free access to all drivers, pit crews and officials from at least 15 minutes before the commencement of the meeting/practice. (c) All competing vehicles to carry their own fire extinguisher as part of their "pit area" equipment. Compliance will be verified at green sheeting Just been through this. There is no size has in Kg. but what you need to take into account is. What kind of fire you may have. Eg a methanol fire will require foam A petrol fire "may" need dry powder. To be on the safe side you may need SAY a 3 kg extinguisher as a one 1KG extinguisher will more than likely run out sooner than later. ( better to have more then not enough) For those that read the rule you are right there is no Product type there is no quantity, commonsense should prevail as to what and how much is needed. The yellow cap or red cap could say you do not have enough. Fail Greensheet. Note. If you have a extinguisher already check the expiry date.  ? |
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Post by epmurc on Aug 11, 2015 12:38:19 GMT 12
Sent an e-mail to SNZ about this a week ago asking for clarification and have been totally underwhelmed by the number of replies I've received................zero to date.
Just a note on the type of extinguisher required for methanol. When I first started racing the Mod I visited the Fire Service training facility at Mt Wellington in Auckland to find out what would be the best type of extinguisher for me to have in my shed and with the car.
After a certain degree of head scratching the experts determined that there was no extinguisher type they could recommend and that in fact the best method for putting out a methanol fire was water.
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Yard
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Posts: 126
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Post by Yard on Aug 11, 2015 13:28:05 GMT 12
Sent an e-mail to SNZ about this a week ago asking for clarification and have been totally underwhelmed by the number of replies I've received................zero to date. Just a note on the type of extinguisher required for methanol. When I first started racing the Mod I visited the Fire Service training facility at Mt Wellington in Auckland to find out what would be the best type of extinguisher for me to have in my shed and with the car. After a certain degree of head scratching the experts determined that there was no extinguisher type they could recommend and that in fact the best method for putting out a methanol fire was water. HAZ CHEM. # UN. 1230. Fire-fighting measures Suitable Extinguishing Media: Synthetic Fire fighting foam AR-FFF (3% solution), carbon dioxide, dry chemical powder, water spray or fog. Water may be effective for cooling, diluting, or dispersing methanol, but may not be effective for extinguishing a fire because it will not cool methanol below its flash point. Fire-fighting foams, such as multipurpose alcohol-resistant foams, are recommended for most flammable liquid fires. If water is used for cooling, the solution will spread if not contained. Mixtures of methanol and water at concentrations greater than 20% methanol can burn. Hope this is helpful Cheers. |
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Post by mod46c on Aug 11, 2015 14:11:40 GMT 12
After a certain degree of head scratching the experts determined that there was no extinguisher type they could recommend and that in fact the best method for putting out a methanol fire was water. So a bucket of water would cover the requirement as written. |
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Yard
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Posts: 126
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Post by Yard on Aug 11, 2015 14:47:05 GMT 12
After a certain degree of head scratching the experts determined that there was no extinguisher type they could recommend and that in fact the best method for putting out a methanol fire was water. So a bucket of water would cover the requirement as written. Perhaps hang onto you nervous one, before the meeting. Lol |
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Post by speedwaynut on Aug 11, 2015 15:24:34 GMT 12
Sent an e-mail to SNZ about this a week ago asking for clarification and have been totally underwhelmed by the number of replies I've received................zero to date. Maybe now that the CEO has departed, they are struggling to answer all queries.... |
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Post by brettgrace on Aug 11, 2015 15:48:23 GMT 12
So a bucket of water would cover the requirement as written. I recommend an old Mr muscle spray bottle with "extinguisher" written on it and I fill from the wash bucket as needed. |
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Post by TimSOZ on Aug 11, 2015 18:11:50 GMT 12
To be fair to SNZ this was a remit put forward by a track and voted on by tracks and competitors....then its left to SNZ to get their head around in terms of enforcement etc. In short, a classic speedway hospital pass.
There's no minimum size in the rule, so its unlikely your scruitneer can tell your extinguisher is too small...but it will certainly have to be a genuine extinguisher, probably with some kind of date on it.
Back in the day when E85 was introduced we got an expert involved who advised that basically all those mentioned above would have some effect on any type of fuel fire, and certainly that water is best for an ethanol fire too, primarily as a dispersal agent.
Hope this helps.
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Post by The Godfather on Aug 11, 2015 20:36:36 GMT 12
After a certain degree of head scratching the experts determined that there was no extinguisher type they could recommend and that in fact the best method for putting out a methanol fire was water.Not sure which "experts" you consulted but trust me water is the last thing I would be putting on a methanol fire |
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Post by epmurc on Aug 11, 2015 20:45:36 GMT 12
Well you know when you ring 111 and the fellas from the calendars turn up in the big red trucks? Well it was the experts that train them to do their job.
Maybe with all the advancements in health and safety rules since then there are better written pieces of advice but I'd say methanol still burns the same now as it did 10 years ago.
There's always a couple of buckets of water sitting at the end of my trailer, if the need arose, and I'm talking about someone rather than something on fire, I know what I'd be doing rather than fannying around looking for an extinguisher and hoping it might just do the trick.
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Les
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Posts: 190
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Post by Les on Aug 11, 2015 21:03:59 GMT 12
So I should be able to use an ABE (multi purpose) extinguisher with no issues from scrutineering? Or best to get a ABE & a BE to be on the safe side?
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Les
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Posts: 190
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Post by Les on Aug 11, 2015 21:09:06 GMT 12
This is the chart I've been looking at.  |
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Post by karencarey on Aug 11, 2015 22:26:18 GMT 12
From the info brochure supplied by methanex (one of the main manufacturers)
Fire Extinguishing Methods and Dangers
Methanol burns with a clear flame and without smoke,so it is difficult to see in daylight.
Methanol will still burn at four parts of water to one part of methanol.
Extinguish with:
• Water—a minimum five parts water to one part
methanol
• Foam—alcohol resistant fire fighting foam
• Dry powder extinguisher
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Post by mod46c on Aug 12, 2015 6:56:42 GMT 12
After a certain degree of head scratching the experts determined that there was no extinguisher type they could recommend and that in fact the best method for putting out a methanol fire was water.Not sure which "experts" you consulted but trust me water is the last thing I would be putting on a methanol fire From the Methanol institute: www.methanol.org/health-and-safety/frequently-asked-questions.aspx:What types of extinguishers should be used to put out small methanol fires? Small methanol fires can be extinguished with portable, dry chemical extinguishers and/or water spray provided the volume of water is at least four times the volume of the methanol pool. Large methanol pool fires are best extinguished with Alcohol Resistant Aqueous Film Forming Foam (AR-AFFF) with 6% foam-water proportioning equipment. |
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Post by beachboy on Aug 12, 2015 9:19:55 GMT 12
Just go with powder. Unless your cars made out of wood or your cooking your dinner while racing that is.
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Les
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Posts: 190
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Post by Les on Aug 12, 2015 18:02:04 GMT 12
Well there are plastic components inside a stockcar. But other than that, it hasn't been specified what is and isn't expected to be provided by the competitor. How frustrated do you think someone would be to turn up to their home track every weekend and be Ok, then go elsewhere and be told stay on the trailer cause you haven't got the right one.
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Yard
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Posts: 126
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Post by Yard on Aug 12, 2015 18:20:14 GMT 12
Just got a catalogue from a auto-parts store today and gosh look what is on special.
ABC fire extinguishers. 1kg.
Dads it's Father's Day September 6. Lol.
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Post by The Godfather on Aug 12, 2015 21:26:59 GMT 12
Well you know when you ring 111 and the fellas from the calendars turn up in the big red trucks? Well it was the experts that train them to do their job. Maybe with all the advancements in health and safety rules since then there are better written pieces of advice but I'd say methanol still burns the same now as it did 10 years ago. There's always a couple of buckets of water sitting at the end of my trailer, if the need arose, and I'm talking about someone rather than something on fire, I know what I'd be doing rather than fannying around looking for an extinguisher and hoping it might just do the trick. Yep, am very familiar with the fellas on the big red trucks, I was one for 18 years. I also was a Brigade trainer. I'll clarify my statement a bit better.
As we have seen on F1 grids, when fire breaks out, especially on a person, instant action has the best outcome. The same would go for this situation. ie: the trusty bucket of water. As has been pointed out above volume is key when using water. I guess what I was alluding to was an on-track situation with fuel-tank volumes that may ( or may not ) create running fuel fires and in that instance water would only exacerbate the situation. ( Unless you have the watertruck easily accessible)
In a pit situation, dry powder would suit most applications. I don't see the need to get a massive extinguisher given that every competitor should have one ( how many would that be on race night? ) The trusty bucket of water would still make an effective instant response, but would not suffice on its own.
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Post by mod46c on Aug 13, 2015 12:53:17 GMT 12
Well you know when you ring 111 and the fellas from the calendars turn up in the big red trucks? Well it was the experts that train them to do their job. Maybe with all the advancements in health and safety rules since then there are better written pieces of advice but I'd say methanol still burns the same now as it did 10 years ago. There's always a couple of buckets of water sitting at the end of my trailer, if the need arose, and I'm talking about someone rather than something on fire, I know what I'd be doing rather than fannying around looking for an extinguisher and hoping it might just do the trick. Yep, am very familiar with the fellas on the big red trucks, I was one for 18 years. I also was a Brigade trainer. I'll clarify my statement a bit better.
As we have seen on F1 grids, when fire breaks out, especially on a person, instant action has the best outcome. The same would go for this situation. ie: the trusty bucket of water. As has been pointed out above volume is key when using water. I guess what I was alluding to was an on-track situation with fuel-tank volumes that may ( or may not ) create running fuel fires and in that instance water would only exacerbate the situation. ( Unless you have the watertruck easily accessible)
In a pit situation, dry powder would suit most applications. I don't see the need to get a massive extinguisher given that every competitor should have one ( how many would that be on race night? ) The trusty bucket of water would still make an effective instant response, but would not suffice on its own.
At the risk of stating the blindly obvious, F1 uses petrol which is a different beast to Methanol. Again from the Methanol institute: www.methanol.org/Health-And-Safety/Safe-Handling/Methanol-Emergency-Response.aspxWhen an INDY car pulls into the pit with an engine fire, pit crews simply pour water on the racecar, and the driver gets back into the race (see photos). (photo shows bucket of water being poured over driver/car). As an interesting aside from the same source: According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency a switch to methanol fuel would reduce the number of automotive fuel related fires by 90% compared with gasoline, saving hundreds of lives each year. ie Methanol is much less likely to ignite in the first place so conceivably doing nothing in the methanol based classes with still be safer than petrol classes with a dry powder fire extinguisher. |
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