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Post by mod46c on May 22, 2015 7:27:12 GMT 12
everybody has said they have been running these for ten to twenty years. I remember them! I see them only now on dirt track cars with shocking bad wear and the rims cracking. no problem with the system just the age. can you buy these rims and hubs new now? I think that is the question. maybe? These hubs are still available new |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 8:16:11 GMT 12
heres the prices.... from the flamecrusher website.
new rims, lets go with the bigger sizes.
Right rear $120 to $130 for the barrel..
wheel centre is another $105 on top
beadlock is another $150 fitted
would you look at that - thats $375 to $385 for ONE wheel... and SNZ claimed they are trying to make the sport "affordable" and "low cost". How the hell is nearly $400 for a new rim thanks to a possible rule change "affordable" and "low cost"?!? Good intentions and bad results as far as I can tell!!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 9:39:29 GMT 12
heres the prices.... from the flamecrusher website. new rims, lets go with the bigger sizes. Right rear $120 to $130 for the barrel.. wheel centre is another $105 on top beadlock is another $150 fitted would you look at that - thats $375 to $385 for ONE wheel... and SNZ claimed they are trying to make the sport "affordable" and "low cost". How the hell is nearly $400 for a new rim thanks to a possible rule change "affordable" and "low cost"?!? Good intentions and bad results as far as I can tell!! Yes and on average SNZ wants me to replace 3-4 per year based on some poorly thought out rules! Strange, I'm a professional engineer and they haven't touched the important factors at all. I'm guessing because they actually don't have the correct knowledge and can't comprehend what is happening. So much for openness, the replies I've had over 8 months suggest a brickwall with not much ability behind it. I've asked several times for the qualifications of those involved and get either no answer or try and skate around it. Now I can see possible issues with 6 pins, but I can also issues with almost everything to do with the sport. (The joke it was trying to point out why a cage failed because a 80 year old miniture digger driver skilled offical wasn't picking up the real reasons) Long ago I gave up caring as you can lead a horse to water..... But when a bunch of hidden people come up with an idea that takes out about 15% of my budget and I very doubt their skills to make such call does piss me off. I have some very old wheels that have all the correct fundamentals and they still show no sign of fatigue. Some of these new super light ones from elite for example....... need a "little" more knowledge if you're going to build them light. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 10:20:49 GMT 12
after a re-read...
theres four designs that are compliant for custom made wheels.
But theres no indication of who you can get them from - this means your "legal" wheels may have been made by an un-approved manufacturer, thus making them illegal {strict interpretation}
There are NO approved six pin wheels - which means most six stud diffs may as well be illegal, not everyone uses a quickchange after all and why have the diff if you can use the wheels that fit it right?.
This also means that there are a LOT of competitors who are going to be hit in the pocket. about a third of the speedfest saloons where six pin from memory...
I also not that among the approved four designs. Not one fits a morris commercial, although one appears to fit a six stud truck diff? prehaps they forgot that a morris commercial diff is in fact five stud?
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Post by Nigel on May 22, 2015 11:24:38 GMT 12
The proposed new wheel rules and Licence increases will no doubt be discussed vigorously at Conference in a few weeks. Of that I am 100% confident. Will we achieve a resolution? I am 99.9999% confident we won't.  |
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Post by nogrip-31gm on May 22, 2015 11:35:30 GMT 12
do they get stamped like stockcar rims? YES. And yes, the Scrutineer looks closely at them, checking for wear and cracks. Just as they do all types I hope! so if they are stamped like stockcar rims, why cant they let all currently stamped rims be used until they expire?? totally unnecessary, and SNZ are just killing the sport from the inside out... with so many people who run a 6 pin wheel, there will be a huge pile of unusable expensive parts lying around. what a shame.. |
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Post by Wingnut99 on May 22, 2015 12:39:05 GMT 12
I think you will find that SNZ has been told to get its act together.
If you read the whole paper there is a lot of changes coming.
More accountability from Officials hence the pay rise and more reporting, gone are days of being a scrutineer so that you get a free ticket to the skids and a quick beer after.
Its obvious the current wheel rules were unenforceable and hence the rewrite.
Obviously many of the wheels were never approved, seems that drivers just bolted on what ever they liked and the sport just sat on its hands as the current rules could not be understood let alone enforceable.
Some suppliers of wheels and centres have probably pulled the wool over the eyes of the sport for years.
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 22, 2015 14:02:20 GMT 12
I think you will find that SNZ has been told to get its act together. If you read the whole paper there is a lot of changes coming. More accountability from Officials hence the pay rise and more reporting, gone are days of being a scrutineer so that you get a free ticket to the skids and a quick beer after. Its obvious the current wheel rules were unenforceable and hence the rewrite. Obviously many of the wheels were never approved, seems that drivers just bolted on what ever they liked and the sport just sat on its hands as the current rules could not be understood let alone enforceable. Some suppliers of wheels and centres have probably pulled the wool over the eyes of the sport for years. Possibly BUT I doubt it. ll I've asked for is evidence based decisions with common sense applied. There is absolutely NO value to anyone in changing rules just to validate one's existence, just so that you can say, "Look, I tried!"
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Post by bald 81m on May 22, 2015 15:18:19 GMT 12
It's nice to know Murray that snz is not just trying to stuff up the mini stocks but other classes as well
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Post by joe on May 22, 2015 17:17:26 GMT 12
If anyone has made the decision to be complient and are going to sell their Ltd Saloon 6 pin Rear rims preferably Beadlocked I could be interested in purchasing to run on my Saloon at CTRA tracks. PM message me please, cheers.
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Post by jimmyj on May 22, 2015 17:53:03 GMT 12
Just go to alloy wheels like sprintcars and midgets use ,If all classes run the same it could bring down the prices .  |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 18:00:39 GMT 12
Just go to alloy wheels like sprintcars and midgets use ,If all classes run the same it could bring down the prices . Haha. Seen what those things cost  ? Even in the states they're 480 USD with beadlocks, so what that here in NZ stores? (1000-1200?) BSL had them on special for about 950! |
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Post by jimmyj on May 22, 2015 18:37:56 GMT 12
Bring them in yourselves /even 2nd hand ones
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Post by Saloon29s on May 22, 2015 21:03:08 GMT 12
This also means that there are a LOT of competitors who are going to be hit in the pocket. about a third of the speedfest saloons where six pin from memory... 6 pin or 6 stud? |
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Post by japsuper on May 22, 2015 22:55:53 GMT 12
Right, if I can summarise what I understand.
1) Currently there is one approved wheel for use with the 6 pin hub. This is the intero which actually means nothing to me. I have some some 10mm profile cut centres for my ) pins which have never been questioned.
2) The manufacturer of the said intero 6 pin hub doesn't wish to re certify to SNZ requirements and ultimately sell.
SO, SNZ has decided that as the intero centre isn't going to be certified, that the motion be put that 6 pin Hubs are no longer to be used.
The result of this could be that many competitors will be required to spend significant money to replace hubs and wheels to which there does not appear to be any safety concerns.
Surely if common sense prevailed, the motion could put as to a suitable replacement centre for use with the 6 pin hubs? Why can a plate type centre be used, as drawn in the remit they are presenting. Can the engineers out there tell us the difference between a 5 stud and 6 pin in a similar thickness centre?
I personally think SNZ let the competitors down in many areas and actually don't work to help the sport grow and move ahead. No competitors mean no SNZ full stop. There are so many cars sitting in sheds , don't add to them, try to assist to keep guys on the track.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 11:34:43 GMT 12
This also means that there are a LOT of competitors who are going to be hit in the pocket. about a third of the speedfest saloons where six pin from memory... 6 pin or 6 stud? Mix of both - but the rule is for the wheel, and the wheel fits on both. Thats means regardless of wether you are using a quickchange with 6 pin hubs or not... Your wheels could be illegal. The real stupid part is that they dont need to even look at your car to see if your using the hub with pins.. it just the wheels, thats all they care about with this rule. so its not really "six pin wheels are no longer legal in saloons/supersaloons and modifieds" its ALL six stud or six pin wheels unless they fit the ONE approved design. And whats worse is that 99% wont as its a design for a truck diff. theres not that many who use a truck diff thats NOT from a morris commercial... and the morris commercial centre is not on the approved list either! TimSOZ - have your guys really thought this through? It looks to me like they have missed a wopping great portion of what this rule actually affects! |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 11:40:53 GMT 12
Right, if I can summarise what I understand. 1) Currently there is one approved wheel for use with the 6 pin hub. This is the intero which actually means nothing to me. I have some some 10mm profile cut centres for my ) pins which have never been questioned. 2) The manufacturer of the said intero 6 pin hub doesn't wish to re certify to SNZ requirements and ultimately sell. SO, SNZ has decided that as the intero centre isn't going to be certified, that the motion be put that 6 pin Hubs are no longer to be used. The result of this could be that many competitors will be required to spend significant money to replace hubs and wheels to which there does not appear to be any safety concerns. Surely if common sense prevailed, the motion could put as to a suitable replacement centre for use with the 6 pin hubs? Why can a plate type centre be used, as drawn in the remit they are presenting. Can the engineers out there tell us the difference between a 5 stud and 6 pin in a similar thickness centre? I personally think SNZ let the competitors down in many areas and actually don't work to help the sport grow and move ahead. No competitors mean no SNZ full stop. There are so many cars sitting in sheds , don't add to them, try to assist to keep guys on the track. All correct as far as I can see - but you forgot that since the six pin centres are a standard size - banning the wheels that fit them also means alot of competitors may have to change thier non quickchanges. They use the same wheels as far as SNZ are concerned Oh and it gets even worse... " A wheel cannot be used until an application has been submitted and approved by
Speedway NZ. The application will include the report from the SNZ approved
engineer. The cost of testing the wheel is the responsibility of applicant. SNZ can
charge an application fee" So thats anyone with four stud out - I know of one maybe two off the top of my head... and if anyone wants to get thier wheels legal they have to pay for it... but cant race until its done even though the process will likely result in a new legalized stud pattern for the entire class. |
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Post by TimSOZ on May 23, 2015 14:56:02 GMT 12
Unfortunately this site degenerates into the same downward spiral of misinformation and abuse on a regular basis, and this topic has proven to be no different.
None of these proposals are even rules yet - they are voted on by your delegates at the Special General Meeting in June. Speedway NZ could have hung onto this information until two weeks prior, but released it as soon as practicable exactly so the discussions could take place. What we are finding out through this process is just how many wheels that are out there already that aren't legal, and never have been legal. Sadly, that list seems to be growing on a daily basis. I'm not saying that they are unsafe or not (I'm not an engineer) but if they are thinner than the rules allow, and haven't been tested by an engineer it creates a major issue in a worst case scenario. As someone who has been through the wringer from Worksafe over the last 12 months on the behalf of the sport (someone's gotta sign the letters), I can tell you that something like this puts the entire sport at risk...so I'll repeat again what we have said many times over the last few months. If your wheels aren't legal as per the existing rules, take them back to the supplier and ask for a refund, as they are not fit for purpose under the Consumer Guarantees Act.
Its time to put aside the endless bleating and insults, stick to the facts, read the proposed rewrite and help us to secure the future of the sport. The beauty of a Special General Meeting is that the rules can be amended on the day if necessary. Frankly, if there is only an argument over a few clauses out of the entire Wheel rewrite then I think the Wheel committee have done a pretty amazing job of coming to grips with the most impenetrable part of the existing rulebook.
Remember - you can comment on here all day every day, but if you don't arm your delegates at the SGM with the facts then you were expending energy just for the sake of it.
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Post by joker9377 on May 23, 2015 16:37:21 GMT 12
Well said Tim. Members control almost every part of the process. Always have.
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Post by Admin on May 23, 2015 17:11:12 GMT 12
Unfortunately this site degenerates into the same downward spiral of misinformation and abuse on a regular basis, and this topic has proven to be no different. Its time to put aside the endless bleating and insults, Remember - you can comment on here all day every day, but if you don't arm your delegates at the SGM with the facts then you were expending energy just for the sake of it. This kink of irks me and gets trotted out to often. For abuse follow due process and report it , I see frustration especially from some budget racers both current and future but no abuse but I could possibly have missed something. I also see some drivers that are looking for reassurance their circumstances will be taken into consideration either by a lead in period and/or by SNZ approving a wheel that fits their need. For misinformation do your best to correct it. Attacks and put downs aren't often the best way forward. The wheel rules are complex even in their revised form. There will be confusion. I think most of us understand that having safe wheels on race cars is vital , If it's fact that some/many have been running illegal wheels for a long time then that is a worry in itself. Obviously a tidying up of the rules is needed so officials at the tracks can manage their tasks better. I think the process hasn't been well explained re the special GM. I assume special meetings will be organised around the tracks, although I couldn't see in the rulebook where the requirement is for tracks to call such meetings, so drivers can gain a better understanding and have input. I've talk to too many racers that feel powerless in the running of the SNZ machine. Mostly it's their own fault for not getting involved but also the attitude they get in response sometimes. Lastly this is a discussion board , it is what it is. |
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