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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 21, 2015 10:39:34 GMT 12
Okay, I'm no mechanic, no engineer and even less of a competitor, but I try ...
and I try on a bloody lean budget in my ol' car to attend as many meetings as possible,
likely double plus most competitors.
I've just read the latest newsletter from SNZ and it reads (see photo) ....
Do I read correct?
I've run rear 6 pins on the saloon (as it came with) for years, raced for years,
never had or seen ANY issues that unreasonable put the competitor, officials spectators at risk ...
Can't remember the last time I've seen a wheel come off a saloon through wheel failure
(just brain failure and a loose nut), if ever,
and I read that my 8 rims are illegal for reasons unknown? ??
They are inspected frequently, been through two green sheet processes this season.
What's going on?
What is it going to cost me, or the sport as we put it in the 'too hard' basket.
New rims, new hubs, $$$$
Ah, what price safety will say someone from the sideline, in the shadows, that isn't paying the bills and not taking the risks!
All I ask for is 'evidence based decisions' relevant to my class (saloons) and my wallet!
How about, NO new 6 pin centres to be approved? Too easy.
For all classes of speedway, how much of what comes out of SNZ has about as much thought, is actual evidence based, is costing time and money best invested elsewhere to secure real safety enhancements?
Does SNZ have an obligation to it's members (who we are constantly told make the rules, run the show) to include affected parties where reasonable and practical, decisions that impose new costs, and to provide the actual clear reasons why decisions are made.
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Post by BarryB on May 21, 2015 11:38:58 GMT 12
No 6 pins, but on the plus side you might know where all of your championships are going to be for the next 6 years?? (including next season's one, which you already know).
Barry B
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Post by TimSOZ on May 21, 2015 11:39:43 GMT 12
Just to clarify on this particular point - the only previously approved 6 pin wheel on Saloons is the Intero. The supplier has advised that they wont be seeking reapproval for these wheels, so hence they will no longer be able to be used....and thus the rules will now reflect that.
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Post by TonyG188r on May 21, 2015 12:27:10 GMT 12
Woah?! Wonder how many other low budget competitors this will effect, sucks!
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Post by nogrip-31gm on May 21, 2015 12:54:05 GMT 12
Just to clarify on this particular point - the only previously approved 6 pin wheel on Saloons is the Intero. The supplier has advised that they wont be seeking reapproval for these wheels, so hence they will no longer be able to be used....and thus the rules will now reflect that. do they get stamped like stockcar rims? |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 21, 2015 12:56:21 GMT 12
Just to clarify on this particular point - the only previously approved 6 pin wheel on Saloons is the Intero. The supplier has advised that they wont be seeking reapproval for these wheels, so hence they will no longer be able to be used....and thus the rules will now reflect that.
How about the rules reflecting 'best outcomes' rather that more profits to suppliers and increased costs to competitors.
How about some rational that attempts to justify the financial blow, provides a lead in time.
No new rims but if inspected and considered safe (which mine are), then use them.
Still, however, need a reason why my rims on my saloon are no longer allowed.
As an aside but relevant, why does the supplier need further approval (my guess is because SNZ keep shifting the goal posts) ...
and if approved in the past why doesn't this remain in force until a competitor seeks to renew.
The building code for a home changes constantly, as does the design parameters for motor vehicles,
but we don't rebuild/replace with every change!
Somebody quote me the labour, material and fitting cost for replacement hubs and rims ( 4 x beadlocks fitted) please!
What are we talking these days. How much per hub. Per rim complete?
Anybody out there 'in the real world' as a saloon competitor that has had any issues with the use of 6 pin centres and hubs?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 15:27:08 GMT 12
Its only the start Murray , there will be more come out of the remits that will hit the lower budget racer in the pocket.
All in the name of the mighty dollar..
Steps should be taken to make the sport affordable for all as it once was and designed for , not unaffordable so only the wealthy can participate ..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 16:23:39 GMT 12
Just to clarify on this particular point - the only previously approved 6 pin wheel on Saloons is the Intero. The supplier has advised that they wont be seeking reapproval for these wheels, so hence they will no longer be able to be used....and thus the rules will now reflect that.
How about the rules reflecting 'best outcomes' rather that more profits to suppliers and increased costs to competitors.
How about some rational that attempts to justify the financial blow, provides a lead in time.
No new rims but if inspected and considered safe (which mine are), then use them.
Still, however, need a reason why my rims on my saloon are no longer allowed.
As an aside but relevant, why does the supplier need further approval (my guess is because SNZ keep shifting the goal posts) ...
and if approved in the past why doesn't this remain in force until a competitor seeks to renew.
The building code for a home changes constantly, as does the design parameters for motor vehicles,
but we don't rebuild/replace with every change!
Somebody quote me the labour, material and fitting cost for replacement hubs and rims ( 4 x beadlocks fitted) please!
What are we talking these days. How much per hub. Per rim complete?
Anybody out there 'in the real world' as a saloon competitor that has had any issues with the use of 6 pin centres and hubs?
I'm a professional engineer (and I'm not meaning a welder  ) who also poorly drives a saloon car. I am putting a small first pass report together for SNZ into my analysis, backed up by base fundamental principles, CAD FEA analysis and my own broken wheels. My opinion is the rules presented for saloon cars achieve very little, if anything except maybe adding $1000-1500 per season. My suggested rules changes are quite different. |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 21, 2015 16:25:26 GMT 12
Just to clarify on this particular point - the only previously approved 6 pin wheel on Saloons is the Intero. The supplier has advised that they wont be seeking reapproval for these wheels, so hence they will no longer be able to be used....and thus the rules will now reflect that. do they get stamped like stockcar rims? YES. And yes, the Scrutineer looks closely at them, checking for wear and cracks. Just as they do all types I hope! Are folk too scared, feel too intimidated to speak out, demand truthful answers to reasonable questions? I thought stock cars used them. Are they banned from stock cars? Pleassssssse say YES to give the powers that be and dream up this stuff some credibility! Looks increasingly like SNZ may have won, my last race likely over at Waikaraka a couple of weeks back. That bring a few smirks of satisfaction from a few! Bring it on Waihi Beach Speedway Labour Weekend. (Jeez, I hope 6 pins are okay.) |
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Post by TimSOZ on May 21, 2015 16:43:49 GMT 12
The supplier has indicated that they are seeking approval for the 5 stud Intero, but not the 6 pin version. The current engineeers report for these wheels is almost 15 years old, hence the need to re-certify. We need to make sure that the wheel meets the standards demanded by society in 2015, and make no apologies for putting safety first.
Its probably important to note that whether or not the scrutineer checks wheels for wear and cracks the ultimate responsibility lies with the competitor to ensure the wheels fit correctly and are in good condition. The last thing anybody wants is another competitor charged with manslaughter, as happened back in the 1990's. A wheel is replaceable, a life is not.
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 21, 2015 17:03:32 GMT 12
Tell us Tim, what were the charges laid, what was the outcome of the charges laid?
Do they in any way relate to a death in speedway following the failure of what gave every indication to be a perfect good rim?
Charges can be laid by anyone at anytime - rules don't change that!
Ask John Banks.
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Post by TimSOZ on May 21, 2015 17:19:37 GMT 12
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Post by Rossco on May 21, 2015 19:06:53 GMT 12
I havent read the whole rule change thing but does it apply to ford 9inch or hylux diffs and wheels that are not wide fives , We run 6pins , No problems ,40 plus meetings a year , Cheers 77k
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Post by Devilracer on May 21, 2015 20:02:12 GMT 12
Well I guess thats just put paid to a few more Modifieds racing now. I ran 6 pins for years on all my Modifieds and never had an issue. Why cant the 6 pins be made by anyone else? Steel surgeon does great wheels, To a point Elite wheels in Chch.
Why cant Saloon guys run these anymore. The reason doesnt wash with me, and Murray by the sounds of it. So much for " The drivers make the rules"
Oh and by the way, the wheel that killed Katrina was off a Streetstock, not a Saloon or Modified and weve been running 6 pins since this accident.
No wonder the sport is seeing more people walk away.
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Post by joe on May 21, 2015 21:36:12 GMT 12
Bit of a shame this is happening alright. My car is an ex SNZ Ltd Saloon that I've just about finished for this coming season and I will be using 6 Pin Rear hubs and Rims because I already them. I wanted to come and do a couple of race meets at Waikaraka, Huntly, Kihikihi, Rotorua this season but for obvious reasons this will now not happen as I have just come to the end of my budget so No new replacement Hubs, Rims etc for me. This now means I will do more regular meets at my own local CTRA track and 3 neighbouring CTRA tracks. This decision by SNZ will definetly have an affect on the guys running their Ltd Saloons on a budget and possibly the numbers in that class which is a bit of a shame really.
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Post by Pirate Racing NZ on May 21, 2015 21:47:30 GMT 12
Postal to digital information issuing for 35k? So if you can read this post, then there is no need for 35k to be spent. The vast majority of speedway officials must have access to Internet or at least someone in their vicinity can pass information on. They must have a huge postal bill at the moment, would this offset this further?
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Post by Admin on May 21, 2015 21:56:35 GMT 12
Postal to digital information issuing for 35k? So if you can read this post, then there is no need for 35k to be spent. The vast majority of speedway officials must have access to Internet or at least someone in their vicinity can pass information on. They must have a huge postal bill at the moment, would this offset this further? I would assume the money would be spent on implementing a digital system , software, expertise etc. Not merely sending and receiving. |
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Post by epmurc on May 21, 2015 22:54:11 GMT 12
Well I guess thats just put paid to a few more Modifieds racing now. I ran 6 pins for years on all my Modifieds and never had an issue. Why cant the 6 pins be made by anyone else? Steel surgeon does great wheels, To a point Elite wheels in Chch. Why cant Saloon guys run these anymore. The reason doesnt wash with me, and Murray by the sounds of it. So much for " The drivers make the rules"............. Exactly. I've run 6 pins on both the left and right rear for 10 years with no hint of failure (seen some Wide 5's break with serious consequences though). On odd occasion a pin or two might break but it's easy enough to replace a set of those. My rims get regularly checked and if there's a problem they go straight to the Steel Surgeon for new 10mm (yes that's 10mm) centres. Like anything else, maintenance checks should pick these issues up. Come green sheeting time, the rims are checked and stamped and if they don't measure up, no green sheet; it's as simple as that. I see our licence fees are going up to fund, among other things, more in depth technical "policing". Surely this could include semi-regular inspections of 6 pin wheels and some sort of tagging system to make sure out of spec wheels can't be used. Failing that, looks like all that money I spent on replacing centres and bead-locks before last season might have well been used to start a small bonfire. |
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srr
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Post by srr on May 22, 2015 0:22:56 GMT 12
everybody has said they have been running these for ten to twenty years. I remember them! I see them only now on dirt track cars with shocking bad wear and the rims cracking. no problem with the system just the age. can you buy these rims and hubs new now? I think that is the question. maybe?
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Post by mod46c on May 22, 2015 7:23:12 GMT 12
Okay, I'm no mechanic, no engineer and even less of a competitor, but I try ... and I try on a bloody lean budget in my ol' car to attend as many meetings as possible, likely double plus most competitors. I've just read the latest newsletter from SNZ and it reads (see photo) .... Do I read correct? I've run rear 6 pins on the saloon (as it came with) for years, raced for years, never had or seen ANY issues that unreasonable put the competitor, officials spectators at risk ... Can't remember the last time I've seen a wheel come off a saloon through wheel failure (just brain failure and a loose nut), if ever, and I read that my 8 rims are illegal for reasons unknown? ?? They are inspected frequently, been through two green sheet processes this season. What's going on? What is it going to cost me, or the sport as we put it in the 'too hard' basket. New rims, new hubs, $$$$ Ah, what price safety will say some clown that isn't paying the bills and not taking the risks! All I ask for is 'evidence based decisions' relevant to my class (saloons) and my wallet! How about, NO new 6 pin centres to be approved? Too easy. You can still use a Manufactured Plate Centre T14-1-2 for 6 pin wheels. At least that's my reading of the rules as a competitor that uses a '6' pin front end. Not sure what's happening in the saloon class but I know in the Modified section we where having issues with right rear wheel centres both pressed and manufuactured. We considered removing the 6 pin right rear option but chose to go with a 10mm minimum centre for right rears instead. We had a number of right rear 'pressed' centres fail and we where also observing cracking with 8mm manufacturer centres. I not aware of any issues on the other 3 corners of A modified. |
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??
) who also poorly drives a saloon car. I am putting a small first pass report together for SNZ into my analysis, backed up by base fundamental principles, CAD FEA analysis and my own broken wheels. My opinion is the rules presented for saloon cars achieve very little, if anything except maybe adding $1000-1500 per season. My suggested rules changes are quite different.
