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Post by TimSOZ on May 23, 2015 18:04:17 GMT 12
Ah, what price safety will say some clown that isn't paying the bills and not taking the risks!
No wonder the sport is seeing more people walk away
totally unnecessary, and SNZ are just killing the sport from the inside out...
There is absolutely NO value to anyone in changing rules just to validate one's existence, just so that you can say, "Look, I tried!"
It's nice to know Murray that snz is not just trying to stuff up the mini stocks but other classes as well
OK, I'll do the work of the moderators then....the above are clippings from this thread.....can you imagine the uproar if I'd posted stuff like this...but yet people can say it in response?? Not acceptable.
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Post by Admin on May 23, 2015 18:17:05 GMT 12
Ah, what price safety will say some clown that isn't paying the bills and not taking the risks! No wonder the sport is seeing more people walk away totally unnecessary, and SNZ are just killing the sport from the inside out... There is absolutely NO value to anyone in changing rules just to validate one's existence, just so that you can say, "Look, I tried!" It's nice to know Murray that snz is not just trying to stuff up the mini stocks but other classes as well OK, I'll do the work of the moderators then....the above are clippings from this thread.....can you imagine the uproar if I'd posted stuff like this...but yet people can say it in response?? Not acceptable. No , not abuse . Expressions of frustration not overly pleasant but we're not censors. And if you posted like that ? , oh wait you did already.  Best to focus on the issues I reckon. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 18:17:14 GMT 12
Unfortunately this site degenerates into the same downward spiral of misinformation and abuse on a regular basis, and this topic has proven to be no different. None of these proposals are even rules yet - they are voted on by your delegates at the Special General Meeting in June. Speedway NZ could have hung onto this information until two weeks prior, but released it as soon as practicable exactly so the discussions could take place. What we are finding out through this process is just how many wheels that are out there already that aren't legal, and never have been legal. Sadly, that list seems to be growing on a daily basis. I'm not saying that they are unsafe or not (I'm not an engineer) but if they are thinner than the rules allow, and haven't been tested by an engineer it creates a major issue in a worst case scenario. As someone who has been through the wringer from Worksafe over the last 12 months on the behalf of the sport (someone's gotta sign the letters), I can tell you that something like this puts the entire sport at risk...so I'll repeat again what we have said many times over the last few months. If your wheels aren't legal as per the existing rules, take them back to the supplier and ask for a refund, as they are not fit for purpose under the Consumer Guarantees Act. Its time to put aside the endless bleating and insults, stick to the facts, read the proposed rewrite and help us to secure the future of the sport. The beauty of a Special General Meeting is that the rules can be amended on the day if necessary. Frankly, if there is only an argument over a few clauses out of the entire Wheel rewrite then I think the Wheel committee have done a pretty amazing job of coming to grips with the most impenetrable part of the existing rulebook. Remember - you can comment on here all day every day, but if you don't arm your delegates at the SGM with the facts then you were expending energy just for the sake of it. Jeez Tim - I just brought your attention to it, theres no need to fly off the handle so bloody quick! A if there is - could you at least tell us what is the misinformation? The main problems I can personally see are these. 1 - the only wheels centres permitted are now the approved designs - but this means that there are saloons, super saloons and modifieds with almost new wheels that no longer are legal. thats alot of money down the drain! 2 - the designs are only good for certain Diffs. I noticed the lack of a design suitable for the morris diff in particular - a large number of competitors use one! whereas looking at the approved six stud design I wondered what diff it would fit as the hole in the centre is massive - Ive yet to see many morris commercial diffs with 6 stud. There are also competitors using four stud that will be left out in the cold, as well as those who have wheels that have more than 6 stud. I guess custom made wheel centres specific to certain cars may now be illegal too... 3 - the banning of six pin on saloons/super saloons and Modifieds. This appears to be a knee jerk reaction as accordinng to the 2011 {the latest that I could find!} tech manual there are other wheel centres that are both six stud/pin and approved. the Elite wheels that Murray Guy runs for example {and you said Bassett? lol - easy mistake I guess?} Banning them because Intero didnt want to re certify is a bit harsh when other manufacturers CURRENTLY LEGAL wheel centres could fill the gap! 4 - custom cut centres are not allowed for, well maybe its not that they are not allowed for but simply not reffered to at all! Theres two rules on thickness and tensile strength and nothing else... a bit ambiguous! - does this mean that I can make wheel centres at home {I wouldnt though, not yet anyway} and they would be legal as long as they passed scrutineering? If that is the case why would six pin hubs be suddenly illegal when youve effectively let me make my own six pin wheels? I know Im going a bit far afield in speculation - I may even be on the wrong track entirely. But because ONE manufacturer has said they dont want to re certify a wheel centre SNZ as a whole are suggesting removing the ability to use that type of wheel. In the process of which they are forgetting that other people make them too! And what makes this even worse? the hubs are still legal for superstocks. which means what for the wheel centres? apparently they must be legal too. How is this fair? Youre proposing letting these wheel centres be legal in a contact class where they can be deliberatly ripped off but not in non contact classes? |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 18:23:55 GMT 12
Unfortunately this site degenerates into the same downward spiral of misinformation and abuse on a regular basis, and this topic has proven to be no different. None of these proposals are even rules yet - they are voted on by your delegates at the Special General Meeting in June. Speedway NZ could have hung onto this information until two weeks prior, but released it as soon as practicable exactly so the discussions could take place. Remember - you can comment on here all day every day, but if you don't arm your delegates at the SGM with the facts then you were expending energy just for the sake of it. I'll point something out right here about misinformation, especially relating to we need to discuss with our delegates. SNZ released the proposed remits and we went through them at meetings, however, at the 11th hour before these meeting, apparently SNZ had taken the wheel part out the points of discussion. The wheel issue just happens to pop up again a few months later as we get even closer to the AGM after all the club meetings. My very little contact from the wheel committee had this in one line, "one of the member actually has the ability to CAD the wheel centres." What I was sent was a 1980s CAD sketch over a image, and a poorly done CAD sketch at that. Well that was really cute. Below is a very simple first past FEA analysis looking at feature that affect the wheel strength. None of this is handled in SNZ rule changes, the off the shelf wheel centre I had both from two different sources failed with pretty much that stress and then fatigue pattern. The true crack runs towards the wheel stud, to simulate that properly, I would need a multiply body FEA which is a lot more involved, unstable and outside my specialty. I do know know however the fracture started at the hub and spoke interface based on the fatigue pattern.  |  |  | | SNZ legal, but as typical no fundamentals considered | Stage 1, corrected largest limiting factor until it is no longer the weak link | Stage 2, developed out the next week limit until that was no longer the weak link |
Next stage would to work on the few little remaining stress concentrations. The real issue I've seen with the wheel centres is people who do not have the correct knowledge, get hold of the CNC equipment and start cutting centres. This has got worse as people become more and more concerned about having light weight wheels, and that tests their design skills further. People are getting confused, it is inertia, not mass that people should be aiming to reduce(The same with suspension). Extra material in the centre of the wheel around the hub is of little consequence because its distance from the rotational axis is so small compared to the wheel outter and tyre. It make absolutely no sense to lighten the area around the hub when that is critical for strength and has little overall effect on the inertia. The other thing to handle properly is stress concentrations, I had one wheel from one of the main suppliers and this design was an absolute shocker for stress concentration, it cracked quickly exactly where I though it would. Those "designs" in the proposed rules are not true "designs," they need to be concentrating of specifying the proper details for wheel centres. The simple FEA I did above, I managed to reduce the peak stress by about 75%, and it required only a 1.2% increase in inertia. I'm pretty sure I'd get that towards 85% in another stage with only some minor changes. What I hate with these new rules is the much reduced lifespan. One of the benefits of plain carbon steel, is that a properly designed structure won't fail from fatigue. Plain carbon steel structures, when designed properly, gets to a certain point and then do not weaken any further due to the material properties at a granular level. The loading calculation of the FEA pictures above was actually done for "infinite life" For a properly designed wheel to fail, it requires an impact loading. That impact could come within 5 seconds into its life, or 1 season or 5 seasons. If you want to check for dangerous wheels you need to regularly inspect them (ie A quick pre-meeting glance by the scrutineers). I had one break at me at Patetonga, (before ever running a race), I then found the other cracking wheel centres very easily and quickly by checking. The crack should appear on the outer edge of the wheel centre as it that part that is subjected to the highest strain. |
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Post by TimSOZ on May 23, 2015 18:45:32 GMT 12
Happy to be corrected re Murray's RR wheel. Which of the approved Elite wheels is it?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 18:57:37 GMT 12
Happy to be corrected re Murray's RR wheel. Which of the approved Elite wheels is it? According to the tech manual its "Elite wheels 1" This wheel fits on a 6 pin hub too. well, clearly it does - Murray uses them! Unfortunately, this is a design that will be made illegal - along with the newly permitted DTM Sandilands corsa wheel and the Hastings Tyre and Mag D windows - if this proposal goes through. Wouldnt it be better to just set minimum specifications on thickness, dimension and welded ares? then set certain designs as "favourites", ie: most likely to pass scrutineering, and train scrutineers to be totally anal in regards to wheels? It seems to me that theres alot of fuss over something that in reality needs to be just cleaned up and have MINIMAL wording! its still not that easy to understand. |
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Post by midway on May 23, 2015 19:09:55 GMT 12
It is good to have clarification in discussion on matters arising in this thread from Tim once again ,but it also needs to happen more often ,before the dirty washing hangs out to dry .
We all enjoy this great sport as well Macgors ,so lets try not to throw too many stones at each other ,in topics like this ,the dialog from SnZ is welcoming advice..
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Post by beachboy on May 23, 2015 19:19:21 GMT 12
Ah, what price safety will say some clown that isn't paying the bills and not taking the risks! No wonder the sport is seeing more people walk away totally unnecessary, and SNZ are just killing the sport from the inside out... There is absolutely NO value to anyone in changing rules just to validate one's existence, just so that you can say, "Look, I tried!" It's nice to know Murray that snz is not just trying to stuff up the mini stocks but other classes as well OK, I'll do the work of the moderators then....the above are clippings from this thread.....can you imagine the uproar if I'd posted stuff like this...but yet people can say it in response?? Not acceptable. And if you posted like that ? , oh wait you did already. Best to focus on the issues I reckon. I'll have to keep this one up my sleeve, People express their frustration in different way's you know  |
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Post by japsuper on May 23, 2015 19:20:14 GMT 12
Great comments Mr Macgor. I find the tone and undercurrent attitude of Tims responses, lets say, somewhat interesting.
Firstly this is a forum which those will express opinions, that's the nature of it. Perhaps it would be wise if the CEO of SNZ not get involved in such a medium. Certainly I'm sure he does it with best intentions.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 19:31:00 GMT 12
I would like to know - why did they not just do this...
Steel custom fabricated wheels:
Minimum thickness for ALL wheel centers to be 8mm. A 10mm minimum thickness center is compulsory on right rear wheels that do not use wide five wheel centers.
This rule includeds pressed steel centers as well as custom cut centers.
ALL wheel centers to be uniformly welded on both sides wherever the center is in contact with the wheel barrel - no exceptions. The minimum fillet size is 4mm, all welds must meet minimum welding standard AS/NZ 1554.1 {not sure how you police that though}
Reccomended designs as follows.... {add relevant pictures here}
Countersinks must correctly fit the wheel nuts being used with the wheel studs fully engaged.
No slotted stud holes or spacers permitted.
Beadlocks are permitted in Open Wheel, Super Saloon/Saloon and Modified classes only.
All wheels must correctly fit the spigot with minimum clearance.
Did I just rewrite all the rules for steel wheels to fit with the intent? Low cost - safe and easy to understand was the goal. How far off did I get?
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Post by midway on May 23, 2015 20:07:29 GMT 12
I would like to know - why did they not just do this... Steel custom fabricated wheels: Minimum thickness for ALL wheel centers to be 8mm. A 10mm minimum thickness center is compulsory on right rear wheels that do not use wide five wheel centers. This rule includeds pressed steel centers as well as custom cut centers. ALL wheel centers to be uniformly welded on both sides wherever the center is in contact with the wheel barrel - no exceptions. The minimum fillet size is 4mm, all welds must meet minimum welding standard AS/NZ 1554.1 {not sure how you police that though} A certified welder who has the appropriate welding ticket and here is the catch it has to be signed off in a written paper of clarification just like welding drawbeams for trucks etc to go for cof,s ,. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:00:07 GMT 12
I would like to know - why did they not just do this... Steel custom fabricated wheels: Minimum thickness for ALL wheel centers to be 8mm. A 10mm minimum thickness center is compulsory on right rear wheels that do not use wide five wheel centers. This rule includeds pressed steel centers as well as custom cut centers. ALL wheel centers to be uniformly welded on both sides wherever the center is in contact with the wheel barrel - no exceptions. The minimum fillet size is 4mm, all welds must meet minimum welding standard AS/NZ 1554.1 {not sure how you police that though} A certified welder who has the appropriate welding ticket and here is the catch it has to be signed off in a written paper of clarification just like welding drawbeams for trucks etc to go for cof,s ,. there we go - now guys and gals, how did we do? TimSOZ - is that not easier to understand? takes up less space and says the same stuff too {apart from banning the 6 pin hubs}, whats your opinion?. |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 23, 2015 21:42:07 GMT 12
Can somebody answer my perfectly reasonable questions as the one who incurres the cost and inconvenience.
Who made this decision?
Who determined the process and what was it?
Why was I not included in the process as an affected party (SNZ have my email)?
What was the rational for the decision and why no period of transition?
What will it cost approximately to purchase replacement rims x 8 and hubs?
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Post by BarryB on May 23, 2015 21:47:11 GMT 12
Can somebody answer my perfectly reasonable questions as the one who incurres the cost and inconvenience. Who made this decision? Who determined the process and what was it? Why was I not included in the process as an affected party (SNZ have my email)? What was the rational for the decision and why no period of transition? What will it cost approximately to purchase replacement rims x 8 and hubs? If you read TimSNZ's reply above Murray, you'll see it isn't actually a decision/rule yet at all. It's one of many proposals to be discussed and decided upon AT the AGM. Barry B |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:47:29 GMT 12
Can somebody answer my perfectly reasonable questions as the one who incurres the cost and inconvenience. Who made this decision? Who determined the process and what was it? Why was I not included in the process as an affected party (SNZ have my email)? What was the rational for the decision and why no period of transition? What will it cost approximately to purchase replacement rims x 8 and hubs? desicion not made yet Murray. Its going to be argued about at a special general meeting - not sure what that means though as its the first ive heard of it! |
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Post by BarryB on May 23, 2015 21:48:38 GMT 12
Nice new avatar there too beachboy.............
Barry B
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Post by midway on May 23, 2015 22:09:11 GMT 12
Can somebody answer my perfectly reasonable questions as the one who incurres the cost and inconvenience. Who made this decision? Who determined the process and what was it? Why was I not included in the process as an affected party (SNZ have my email)? What was the rational for the decision and why no period of transition? What will it cost approximately to purchase replacement rims x 8 and hubs? Dont panic,Dad,s army havent even fired a shot yet The battle lines are full of excitement pull out the hip flask and have a brandy , The cost will be marginal if you go to the right engineering shop .. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:12:53 GMT 12
The cost will be marginal if you go to the right engineering shop .. on the other hand if you go to Flame crusher it will be over $3000.00 |
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Post by midway on May 23, 2015 22:16:52 GMT 12
The cost will be marginal if you go to the right engineering shop .. on the other hand if you go to Flame crusher it will be over $3000.00 If you want to get your hands burnt  |
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 23, 2015 22:20:40 GMT 12
Is it any wonder I'm a tad frustrated! Nobody is prepared to tell me what is wrong with my hubs and rims that warrants a blanket ban after all these years! Marginal cost - yeh right! Can my rims have existing centres removed? New Hubs at $350 plus freight New rim complete at $400 plus freight. (with bead locks) Give or take a dollar, $4000.  |
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