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Post by schumaaka on May 24, 2009 9:53:21 GMT 12
All I can really say is Shane, no successful form of motorsport that I can think of, in fact probably no successful form of sport at all, has the rules made, and where the major events are staged, by the comeptitors/players. Just what I thought, you wouldn't answer my question. You are happy to knock anyone elses ideas however appear to have none of your own or possibly none that you wish to share with us at this time which is even more concerning!!
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Post by BarryB on May 24, 2009 10:49:17 GMT 12
My views haven't really changed over the past 15-20 years Shane, and have been printed in various places numerous times during that period. I think all New Zealand titles should be held at venues that are suitable for that particular class - among many other criteria. That means different tracks would be eligible for different classes, as while Super Saloons are awesome around Baypark and Sidecars likewise around Wanganui, the vice-versa certainly would not apply.
If you use your Super Saloon class as an example, I feel the NZ title both could and should only be staged at a small handful of tracks, in cycle. That can't be set in stone for all eternity who those 4 or 5 would be, as venues both upgrade and decline with the passing of time, but currently Waikaraka Park, Baypark, Woodford Glen and Cromwell would certainly be on my list (not that it's up to me, of course), each venue meeting most criteria. Te Marua would be a good addition here too, as a southern NI venue would really need to be on the list to make things work for everybody. Competitors in each region still need encouragement to race in each class, and major titles generally see class numbers rise (maybe not in all classes, but some) in said region for a couple of years around title time.
North & South Island titles, and GP events, would still be open to other venues which contract the class, and they would secure those more often as those that get the NZ title would not be eligible for the others.
There would also be criteria set upon the track as far as prize money etc goes, so they cannot reap the rewards of staging such an event just because they've got big pits, a big wide track and plenty of grandstand space, access to media and great hotdogs.
I'm not saying my ideas are right, or that yours are wrong, the best thing is ideas are being thrown around. Ultimately, without that, nothing will ever improve, and often the best ideas of all are a combination of several peoples theories. Whatever changes are made has to be of benefit to all stakeholders, competitors and spectators alike, meaning for the good of the sport overall.
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Post by schumaaka on May 24, 2009 11:22:20 GMT 12
Thanks for the reply Barry,
Here's the problem as I see it The NZ Super Stock Teams champs is the most successful event speedway has in NZ I think most would agree. It attracts a regularly attracts a huge crowd year in and year out and because of it regular location has built to the stage that it generates huge sums of money into the speedway and the local economy.
Why is it so successful?? Simple it is an annual event, held at the same location, provides consistent entertainment for the paying public, the infrastructure is in place because they know what to expect year in year out. SNZ is not involved other than officiating, SPANZ is not involved. Thats why its successful!!
There are plenty of golf courses in the country that could hold the NZ Golf open however it is held at the Hill Golf course and is growing each years and gaining momentum, soon it will be a financial disaster to move it to any other location. A forward thinking Board made this decision and golf in NZ will reap the rewards.
SNZ need to take back control of their championships and allocate them to groups that will use them to build the sport in this country. Clashes of dates as has been seen with NZ Saloons and the DHL show that SNZ don't have the infrastructure in place to manage this yet. Both are important events and the parties should have worked together. Obviously the DHL has been running those dates, If those are the best dates for the Promoter of the BAY Park venue to run that event then if he was interested in speedway he would have spoken to the DHL Guys to find a way to fit them both in!
This makes about as much sense as running the NZ Stockcar champs on the same weekend as the 240's or the Stockcar teams, We should be working together and clearly this doesn't happen at the moment, What are Spanz doing??? Nothing, SNZ doesn't seem to be able to remedy this either.
Again I say SNZ take back the Title allocations and let those in each grade drive their own grades forward.
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Post by Rossco on May 24, 2009 11:26:02 GMT 12
The biggest problem I see with the defending champ having home advantage and deciding where the NZ Champs were held is it could stay put for quite a few years because the best like to race the best and that means fringe top competitors sign with that track , then the track gets richer and can attract the up and coming champions ,and because the 1nz would be a home track hero the incoming competitors would want to be like them and race what they race , this would tend to make certain classes strong in certain areas . But we know meat and two vege gets a bit boring so we will always need a variety of flavours to choose from . also you would leave the officials wide open to accusations of favouritism etc , with the benefits of winning 1nz , I know a bit about rugby which has a Ranfurly Shield that has to be won at home ,more or less. This shield loses a bit of excitement if it stays put for to long , but if it is shifting around the country, then you have got a ball game . . Cheers 77k
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Post by BarryB on May 24, 2009 13:33:04 GMT 12
There's pluses and minuses whichever way you look, and whilst the Palmy Teams is a good example in many respects, I don't think we can strictly apply that to NZ titles. I fear in many cases existing classes could become extremely regional, and not national at all, if we ran, for example, every NZ Super Saloon title at Baypark. I'd be very happy to see it there every 4-5 years however. We're probably in the wrong thread to be discussing this really, but championship allocations is always a good debate.....
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Post by schumaaka on May 24, 2009 13:33:46 GMT 12
The biggest problem I see with the defending champ having home advantage and deciding where the NZ Champs were held is it could stay put for quite a few years because the best like to race the best and that means fringe top competitors sign with that track , then the track gets richer and can attract the up and coming champions ,and because the 1nz would be a home track hero the incoming competitors would want to be like them and race what they race , this would tend to make certain classes strong in certain areas . But we know meat and two vege gets a bit boring so we will always need a variety of flavours to choose from . also you would leave the officials wide open to accusations of favouritism etc , with the benefits of winning 1nz , I know a bit about rugby which has a Ranfurly Shield that has to be won at home ,more or less. This shield loses a bit of excitement if it stays put for to long , but if it is shifting around the country, then you have got a ball game . . Cheers 77k Goods points Mmmmmmm Ranfurly Shield has been around for a long tme and teams step up when they play for it. Good Analogy. Last year the NZ Champ was TC so he probably would want to defend it at Dunedin? ChCh? Huntly?, Baypark?Auckland?, This year Shane would probably want to do it at Bay Park, as would have Dean, I would have brought it back to Cromwell, Steve Huntly?Bunter Stratford mmmmm I dont see any problems with that, I did a heap of work with the drivers to get them there this year and we got a great turnout. I don't see a problem with the officials, a good format negates most of that!! Four race qualifying and a drivey track sorts that we showed that in Cromwell with theNZ Champ 17 races and no protests? The track would still have to meet minimum requirements or move it to the competitors second choice. Home track advantage that would be cool and you would get plenty of visitors over the year to race with as well, I like it!!! As would the promoter and crowd. Would the Tracks put money into their top cars to try and get them to the Champioships, Maybe but whats wrong with that Woodfordglen used to pay an amount to their cars that travelled to attended championships.
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Post by Rossco on May 24, 2009 18:26:25 GMT 12
Pluses and minuses all day long ,most of your points have a certain amount of justification , the spread of 1nz title holders may not stay so spread under the home advantage system . Your point about visitors providing good races for locals would not always apply. Baypark don't really allow visitors in saloons . I think I asked about six times and got turned down each time . So once the saloon title hit bay park it would probably never leave, I can only speak for saloons but bay park is so different to other tracks as I have said previously the home advantage there will be huge , so everyone would have to register there for track time and next thing they would be the only track with enough saloons to make a good field . Cheers77k
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 24, 2009 18:34:30 GMT 12
... Baypark don't really allow visitors in saloons . I think I asked about six times and got turned down each time . So once the saloon title hit bay park it would probably never leave, I can only speak for saloons but bay park is so different to other tracks as I have said previously the home advantage there will be huge , so everyone would have to register there for track time and next thing they would be the only track with enough saloons to make a good field . Cheers77k Not only do they reject visitors, even when their own numbers are low, they refused competitors the right to a practice (as per rules) when they held the Saloon NZGP last season!
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Post by The Godfather on May 24, 2009 19:31:04 GMT 12
Again I say SNZ take back the Title allocations........... Well I guess we will find out soon Shane whether the rest of the country agrees with you, as there are remits asking this very question proposed for the agm.
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Post by nzf2stocks. on May 24, 2009 19:53:01 GMT 12
I believe that major SNZ titles should be shared evenly around all the tracks registering that particular class on a strict rotation basis, if you limit it to the top few tracks all that will happen is the best teams would register to those tracks to get home advantage. Therefore the rich will get richer and the poor get poorer. You could even bias it to the tracks that are struggling for numbers, eg Superstock NZ's at Wellington may just be the tonic to get the class back to its former glory there. As for the DHL/Saloons clash, dont think that the promotor didn't know about the clash, more likely he sheduled it then to take the gloss off the DHL, after all he doesn't promote it.
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Post by dps on May 25, 2009 8:25:09 GMT 12
One thing that should be in place is that the NZ champion should have the right to defend there title.
Therefore the winner of the NZ title shouldnt have to do the first night qualifying rounds to make it in to the actual NZ championship finals.. they should have automatic entry into the finals night. -this would apply for 1NZ only not 2 or 3.
it has happened before where the current NZ champion hasnt even made it to the finals night through no fault of there own. ie Steve Williams defending his super saloon title at gisborne.
this idea would probably be more viable than the NZ champion defending it at there home track.
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Post by schumaaka on May 25, 2009 12:43:50 GMT 12
Lots of ideas coming out some old some new
Where do you drink on a Thursday, Friday Night, where does your wife buy groceries? where do you by Gas what do you do for entertainment???
We normally get into a routine and utilise the same retailers day in day out, this is because we are creatures of habit.
Imagine going to a new supermarket each week or trying a new drinking Establishment each week or indeed setting up a new bar in a different location each week.
While you may have the enthusiasm to do this the reality is that the lack of infrastructure and new staff and locations mean additional cost and lower repeat business and intimately a lower bottom line.
NZ titles the way they are allocated and the often substandard promotion and running of these events drag down the sport.
Repeat events in the same location, quality product, consistent staff etc,etc,etc are the items that make a successful businesses, events or promotion.
Rotation for rotations sake is the reason why the national titles are often such a disaster.
A new group set up to run each event each year, there is no continuity, Different staff, organizers, location, accommodation, Format, Travel- Same Drivers.
There are good and bad track surfaces, track sizes, Promoters, Track staff, Video Crew organising committees and because it changes and the organisers change every year more often that not we get a substandard product.
This would be a recipe for disaster in any business however we persevere with this system for speedway.
Rightly so we have people saying that the NZ Champs take precedent over any series, I agree that is the case however a series is what actually grows a sport and provides financial security for all those involved.
FedEx cup in golf, Nascar, Super 14. This regular type of event grows a fan base and allows sponsors and teams to get on board, People organise their schedules years in advance to go to the events that suit them normally at the same location just like the Stock Car teams. Single meeting Championships in differing locations simply don't work, they provide poor value for money for sponsors and competitors alike.
Why does the national title need to be part of it?? This year for the supers the result would have been the same for both 1NZ Shane McIntyre, and you would get to show case it to lots of tracks over the whole country!!
For supers the SSCAR group are organised and growing the grade and they are the right people to do this because they are the ones racing in the grade. They negotiate with individual promotes and are growing it year after year. They adjust their format to make it fair and good for the crowd and have the best interests of speedway and the super grade as their primary focus. It is my belief that they should have control of the negotiation, allocation and running of the NZ, GP, North Island and South Island Champs.
That way the event would happen on tracks that would show case the grade, would have a consistent product, provide a format that the drivers wanted.
I believe that no-one is better placed than this group to drive their grade forward for the benefit of all.
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34T
Full Member
Posts: 162
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Post by 34T on May 27, 2009 0:11:16 GMT 12
I was fortunate to be involved in the recent SSCAR series in the North Island as a South Island series never got off the ground. With no series in the south, racing was limited to racing at the same track against the same cars. If this continues I believe super numbers in the south will drop off.
Muzz Pierce and Pete Hemi have taken it up-on themselves to drive the SSCAR for Super Saloons over the last two years and the next season has already attracted more cars because it is becoming a great series to be involved with.
Those who have been involved in the DHL series will understand the attraction of racing amongst a group of like people and socializing over a season.
Last weekend the SSCAR drivers gathered at Taupo for a recap and revue of the series finishing with a formal dinner and guest speaker that evening.
What an excellent weekend.
Muzz and Pete insisted on a professional approach from drivers and crew at all race meetings, the weekend was no different. Minuted meeting with agenda focused only on improvement for next season.
The meeting discussed all the pros and cons, race format, penalties, promotions etc with input from drivers how best to improve the series for driver, spectator and track. Win win all round.
What impressed me most was, THERE WAS MORE DIRECTION PLUS ACTION FOR THE SUPER SALOON CLASS IN THIS ONE 3 HOUR MEETING, THAN I HAVE SEEN OVER 12 YEARS FROM SNZ OR SPANZ. It is clear, for any class to be successful, the drivers must take charge of their destiny, or a promoter hit on a winning formula like Palmy stocks.
SNZ is the controlling body implementing rules and regulations. SPANZ??
Muzz and Pete have the vision for the Supers in the north island and are several levels above what is currently happening in the south island.
Paddy North and myself have returned home with the north island ideas and promotional package.
The vision? a north island and south island series culminating in a north v south race meeting.
To be successful requires input and commitment from drivers and as many people we can muster.
To the south island supers, if you want the class to survive you need to get involved.
The whisper is the saloons and supers are to be merged.
NO SUPERS.
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 27, 2009 0:45:15 GMT 12
... What impressed me most was, THERE WAS MORE DIRECTION PLUS ACTION FOR THE SUPER SALOON CLASS IN THIS ONE 3 HOUR MEETING, THAN I HAVE SEEN OVER 12 YEARS FROM SNZ OR SPANZ. It is clear, for any class to be successful, the drivers must take charge of their destiny, or a promoter hit on a winning formula like Palmy stocks. SNZ is the controlling body implementing rules and regulations. SPANZ?? The vision? a north island and south island series culminating in a north v south race meeting. The whisper is the saloons and supers are to be merged. NO SUPERS. "The whisper is the saloons and supers are to be merged. NO SUPERS" Who is doing the whispering? Those with hidden agenda BS have to be exposed and kicked out. They are a real threat to the future of speedway. The saloon and super saloon national classes are here to stay as far as this fella is concerned.Saloons and Super Saloons might look the same or similar sitting on a trailer, BUT that is where the similarity ends. They meet different needs from a competitors point of few and provide a different spectacle from a spectators point if view. Both are equally valid classes of speedway participation and entertainment! Geez Ray, you know how to get a guy fired up! Great thought provoking post which I know for a fact some promotors and at least one director will find very threatening.
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Post by Admin on May 27, 2009 6:31:49 GMT 12
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 27, 2009 9:39:58 GMT 12
SNZ and their Strategic Plan can be likened to my 2 yr old grandson on the potty this morning - looks the part, sounds the part, BUT producing little. The 'Vision, what we want to achieve' and 'Strategic Plan, how we intend to achieve The Vision' are the most critical documents for SNZ. Until such time as the speedway community has had the opportunity to debate, discuss and have input on the same, that produced by the SNZ will be 'an empty, toothless vessel.'The positive message I got was that the SNZ Board was at least starting to recognise the need for planning and trying. The Vision and Strategic Plan must be ratified by the members first and all subsequent rule changes, remits, constitution debate should follow.
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Post by eastie on May 27, 2009 21:14:35 GMT 12
rumours about a si saloon series aren’t rumours. found this website tonite www.saloons.co.nz/has anyone got any info about whether it’s by invite only or if grades can enter
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Post by Murray Guy (Grandad) on May 27, 2009 22:14:19 GMT 12
rumours about a si saloon series aren’t rumours. found this website tonite www.saloons.co.nz/has anyone got any info about whether it’s by invite only or if grades can enter This is an extension of the series which was sponsored by 'The Interislander' November 2008, the extension being Invercargill. To date has been promoted by the Steve Williams Foundation as a Saloon North vs South (A-Grade / saloon) Series. It would come as no surprise to me if the format is modified from previous. What an incredible place to visit. An island of extremes with unparalleled beauty .... And then we have ...BUT the hospitality and the whitebait
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Post by 351 on May 27, 2009 23:32:01 GMT 12
Ah Yes, thanks Murray. Could have chosen a better shot than that last one. Good to still read your sensible comments(even the not so sensible.(far and few they may be) ). All the best .Dave.
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Post by alloyplatypus on Nov 15, 2009 17:48:55 GMT 12
I personally think the title should be run when the SPORT is going to get the most EXPOSURE...... its like saying that a NRL game can't be played at Mount Smart cause there is a Bartercard Cup (NZ Comp) game being played at North Harbour Stadium. Actually i think it is more like scheduling the NZ Superstock Champs on Teams Champs weekend (and i reckon Willie would if he could). Saloons didnt have an official title and Steve created the travelling spectacle to give them a major event fans would appreciate, and it has been the same format and dates since its beginning. It is a great tour, and the premiere classes could (and perhaps have) learnt from it. As for Neville saying its only 16 cars.. it is the top 16 cars.. so ya reckon 17NZ should be running 1NZ while the crowd watches a farce of a title?
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